That summary, like the rest of your comments in this thread, is precisely correct and well packaged in its brevity.
On Wed, 2007-11-14 at 19:47 -0500, Bill Michaelson wrote: > You've repeatedly failed to grasp that the central issue has not been > the assertion that the original poster is bigoted, but rather, that he > cavalierly disregards social conventions in a way that perpetuates > bigotry, and in a way that is juvenile and inappropriate for this type > of forum. Various posters have attempted to isolate this point > explicitly and obliquely, but it keeps getting by you. > > Now that he has repeated the behavior in a way that just happens to be > uncomfortable to you, you feel the need to distance yourself. It's > ironic because his latest post comes in a context that clearly > identifies it as satire, albeit very poor quality. Not so for the > original post: an off-handed gratuitous smear that was just simply in > poor taste. > > Nick Seraphin wrote: > > Well now that Alex is imploding himself on the list, whether he really is > > a bigot or not, he sure wants us all to think he is. So I'm not defending > > Alex anymore. However, I stand by my original position that what he said, > > if it had been said by anyone else, should STILL not be considered a > > bigoted statement, and that taken out of the context of Alex's other > > statements, this by itself was not worth Matthew or anyone else blowing a > > gasket over. > > > > Alex's implosion hurts my argument by association because he was the > > original subject, but again, said by anyone else who doesn't make other > > contextual statements to support it, the "gay" thing was not worth getting > > upset over, nor is it, by itself, bigoted. > > > > -- Nick > > > > > > On Wed, 14 Nov 2007, Brent Wagner wrote: > > > > > > > For what it's worth: I won't do business with Alex, because his > > > comment was juvenile. And, yes, there has been a pattern of > > > mistreatment of homosexuals for a long, long time. And yes, it seems > > > about as bad ( to me, at least ) as mistreating someone due to race. > > > But, we're each entitled to our own opinions and actions in response. > > > So, like I said, I won't deal with Alex. Not because I believe that > > > he's a homophobe, or a racist, but because I don't believe that a > > > comment like the one made by him is remotely mature or professional. > > > By the way, I'm about as conservative as they come. Your assertion > > > that condemning pejoratives is somehow liberal is silly. > > > > > > On Nov 14, 2007, at 12:47 PM, Nick Seraphin wrote: > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, 14 Nov 2007, Matthew Rubenstein wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > People call something that isn't a sexual human "gay" to insult > > > > > it, > > > > > because lots of people have treated gay people as really bad > > > > > things. We > > > > > don't say a bargainer tried to "jew us down" any more, either, even > > > > > though "Jew" isn't a bad word when referring to Jewish people (except > > > > > when people mean it that way). > > > > > > > > > > When you use the term for a group of people as an insult to > > > > > something, > > > > > you are insulting those people. If people called some things > > > > > "christian" > > > > > as an insult, for example, the way people have called things "gay" > > > > > as an > > > > > insult for a long time, then "that thing is christian beyond words" > > > > > would insult not just the thing, but christians, too. > > > > > > > > > You're going way off the deep end here, buddy. First, *I* never > > > > used the > > > > word. I'm simply saying that calling Alex a bigot for using it in > > > > the way > > > > he did is totally going overboard. I'm simply defending Alex on this > > > > because I don't think it was the end of civilization like you seem > > > > to be > > > > indicating now. > > > > > > > > You sound absolutely ridiculous. Go back and read what you just > > > > wrote. > > > > You're implying that calling an inanimate object "gay" is as bad as > > > > making > > > > Black people sit on the back of the bus in the 1950's. You're being > > > > totally irrational. > > > > > > > > Because I defended Alex's benign comment, you now called me a bigot > > > > and a > > > > racist (where did racism come into this? Is being gay now it's own > > > > race?) > > > > and "people like [me]" are the reason there's oppression in the > > > > world and > > > > why life is so horrible in this country. You're obviously liberal > > > > politically from your statements below... aren't liberals supposed to > > > > DEFEND free speech and the first amendment? Or maybe you only > > > > defend YOUR > > > > right to free speech? Anyone who disagrees with you is a bigot or a > > > > racist. Classic lines from the MoveOn.org playbook for arguments. > > > > > > > > I suppose anytime you don't agree with someone, you just "gang up > > > > on them" and beat them into submission until they succumb to your > > > > point > > > > of view? Doesn't that make YOU the oppressive one here? > > > > > > > > If calling something "gay" is such a bigoted slur, then why don't I > > > > see > > > > any outrage from the community at all the thousands of times I've > > > > seen it > > > > used on TV or in movies in the past 10 years alone? > > > > > > > > REAL slurs, like the N-word, don't get used on broadcast television > > > > anymore and haven't for years. Yet I've often heard actors on > > > > broadcast > > > > television saying something is "gay" or "so gay". > > > > > > > > If it's such a horrible thing to say, where's the outrage over it's > > > > common > > > > use in everyday life? Don't tell me this mailing list is the first > > > > time > > > > you've ever seen someone use that word that way in recent history. > > > > > > > > Or what about all the times in TV or movies where there's a > > > > situation in > > > > which someone questions whether another man is gay or not, and they > > > > flinch, give a horrified facial expresion, and say "God No!"... > > > > that's not > > > > more insulting to gay people than Alex calling an inanimate object > > > > "gay" > > > > on a mailing list with a tiny fraction of the viewers of any TV > > > > network? > > > > You think what Alex did was worse? Yet the other thing is clearly > > > > acceptable in today's society. > > > > > > > > I guess Hollywood (which is full of gay people too) didn't get your > > > > memo. > > > > > > > > Any other common words or phrases we have to stop using on here so > > > > as to > > > > not offend you or oppress you? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is a basic point of elementary manners. Ask yourself if > > > > > you > > > > > would > > > > > feel safe in a gay bar full of gay bikers, asked if you like the new > > > > > version of Windows, and you replied that you didn't, LOUDLY, saying > > > > > "THAT IS SO GAY". Would you feel safe? Would your rationalizations > > > > > protect you? > > > > > > > > > > You're one of those people who thinks you've carved out a whole > > > > > > > > > > zone of > > > > > bad behavior because you call rules against it "politically" > > > > > correct, as > > > > > if the behavior is actually correct, but there's some arbitrary rule > > > > > against it. "Politically correct" refers to all kinds of correct > > > > > behavior that had to be forced on bigots by oppressed groups, because > > > > > bigots, usually in the majority, could be stopped only by a > > > > > "political" > > > > > process, like long appeals like this one to people's sense of decency > > > > > buried under their convenient traditional bigotry. > > > > > > > > > > People like you have long insisted from your conveniently > > > > > protected > > > > > roles in society that all kinds of ethnic slurs are OK. But their > > > > > common > > > > > use is a reminder to people they insult that the insults are > > > > > accepted, > > > > > will not be opposed, that the insulter has power to offend that the > > > > > insulted does not have power to stop. The reality is referred to > > > > > by the > > > > > insult. To remind everyone that the target is an acceptable victim, > > > > > which perpetuates the abuse. Including physical and political > > > > > abuse. Gay > > > > > people, even in America, are often second class citizens, with all > > > > > kinds > > > > > of rights and privileges denied them. And your calling something > > > > > "gay" > > > > > as an arbitrary insult to it is helping keep it that way. If you > > > > > don't > > > > > understand that, it's because you understand nothing about > > > > > politics or > > > > > how large groups of people operate. And now you're defending your > > > > > ignorance, just because it's convenient to you. > > > > > > > > > Geez, Just call me Hitler so I can invoke Godwin's Law already. > > > > You're > > > > almost there with the above statements anyway. :-) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I didn't say that making that slur was the sole action keeping > > > > > everyone > > > > > down. But it is part of it. And people failing to confront those > > > > > little, > > > > > everyday abuses is the essential part of it. Every time a White > > > > > person > > > > > in Alabama let a bus driver direct a Black person to the back of the > > > > > bus, or any other of the little acceptable codes of racism was > > > > > indulged > > > > > rather than confronted, the racism was kept propped up by the person > > > > > going along as much as by the person enforcing it. > > > > > > > > > > I also didn't say anything about "Christmas". But your bringing > > > > > > > > > > it up > > > > > refers to you acting like there's some kind of "war on Christmas", > > > > > the > > > > > idiotic culture war that lets privileged people like you act like > > > > > victims, when you're not. A sad perversion of what Christmas is > > > > > supposed > > > > > to stand for: the birth of someone who brought compassion for > > > > > everyone, > > > > > no matter their station, regardless of how socially acceptable it > > > > > was to > > > > > treat some people like animals or objects. > > > > > > > > > Well based on that statement, I now know you're a far-left liberal > > > > nut and > > > > there's no way I can win this argument with you, so I'm not even > > > > going to > > > > try. Go ahead and claim victory... tell me "you're giving up > > > > because you > > > > know you're wrong" or whatever canned phrase liberals are using > > > > this week. > > > > > > > > You've proven you're irrational, and I don't have time to waste > > > > arguing > > > > with an irrational person. > > > > > > > > If someone else, who isn't irrational, wants to discuss this with me > > > > privately, I'll be happy to continue off-list. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bigotry is *real*. It ruins lives. Just because you're > > > > > privileged > > > > > > > > > Yes... calling an inanimate object "gay" is ruining lives. The body > > > > count must be in the thousands. Got to be George Bush's fault! > > > > Just like > > > > Katrina! > > > > > > > > > > > > > BTW, ending your excuses with an insult and a smiley doesn't > > > > > make it > > > > > OK. And your saying that your bigotry is no big deal, just because > > > > > *you* > > > > > are so casual about it, doesn't mean it really is like that. > > > > > > > > > It wasn't an insult. Again, you see something where it doesn't exist. > > > > > > > > My God, I still cannot believe that you went this ape over Alex's > > > > comment. > > > > I'm literally shaking my head in disbelief as I type this. > > > > > > > > -- Nick > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > --Bandwidth and Colocation Provided by http://www.api-digital.com-- > > > > > > > > asterisk-biz mailing list > > > > To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: > > > > http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-biz > > > > > > > > > > --------------------- > > > "If you can't do something smart, do something right." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > --Bandwidth and Colocation Provided by http://www.api-digital.com-- > > > > asterisk-biz mailing list > > To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: > > http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-biz > > > > > _______________________________________________ > --Bandwidth and Colocation Provided by http://www.api-digital.com-- > > asterisk-biz mailing list > To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: > http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-biz -- (C) Matthew Rubenstein _______________________________________________ --Bandwidth and Colocation Provided by http://www.api-digital.com-- asterisk-biz mailing list To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-biz
