Re: Monthly Chat - August, 2020
@Wing of iternity, that about Jaime is precisely my point. It seems that the end of season 5 simplified a lot of factions down to more basic characters.
Rather than the sons of the harpy being a small scale terrorist group and one which Denaerys actually negotiates with quite successfully (since they stop their terrorist activities in return for her marriage to Zo lorac), now they're just a generic eeeevil! army.
In the books, Dawn has as much complication as the other factions, with Arianne's failed plots, Doran MArtelle's long game with Quentin, and the sandsnakes not seeing the big picture, in the series however, things are now just rushing towards war.
The one that really! irritated me here was stanis, beware! here come the spoiling spoilers of extreme spoilage
I cannot pretend to like Stanis in the books, being allied with a religious nutter who has a thing about burning people is not exactly a good thing.
However, Stanis has a lot of good points. He's harsh and unplacable and has no ability to see the world in anything but black and white, but fundamentally, unlike someone like Tywin, he has principles, and unlike someone like Circie he actually is competent, neither will he randomly be ruled by his emotions the way Denaerys often is.
Take the way that John sends Mans Raider's baby with gilly to keep it safe, because John knows that while Stanis would probably be capable of burning babies alive if the ends justified what to him seemed quite extreme measures, he would only do so if it would actually accomplish a goal.
No, this does not make him a good person by any stretch of the imagination, but it does mean he at least is someone who can be reasoned with, because he has rational reasons for action.
he's the one person who takes the threat of the others seriously, not to mention being a pretty awesome general.
Whilst I have a nasty feeling that between Tyrian's tacticks at the black water, and the general toll of fighting in the north his attack on Bolton is doomed, at the same time, I know who I'll be cheering for when we see that battle when the winds of winter eventually does! come out.
However, in the series, he burns his daughter Shirrreen.
Yes, Book Stanis would probably do this (see my above comments about expediency), however, there is a huge difference between suspecting that a character might take some sort of action, and actually seeing them do it.
There are some lines which tip any character from grey, into out and out villainy, and burning a child alive, especially a child we've grown to like throughout the series is one of them.
once Shirreen burned, there is no possibility of seeing Stanis as anything but a villain from a dramatic perspective, indeed I was not at all surprised that he dies so soon after, since at that point, he pretty much is irredeemable to the audience.
What's worse, is that all of the dramatic potential which could have been gleaned from that possibility is removed.
Davos, who already defied Stanis in the case of Gendry (edric storm in the books), would not have sat by and watched the princess he regarded as a surrigate daughter die, and the conflict between the ex smuggler and man of honour's loyalty to his king, and his paternal love for the princess would have been fantastic to see.
Similarly, had Stanis been recommended the course of action by Melesandra, but refused, then there would be a lot of drama to be gained.
Supposed Stanis refused to harm his daughter, then lost the battle, well would this make him more of a zealot in future? Suppose he refused his daughter but won, how would that affect his belief in Melisandra and her powers.
Again, there was far more interesting potential from a character perspective which could have resulted from not! taking this decision than from taking it, since once Shirreen died, any sympathy or respect the audience had for Stanis went out thee window, and we just want to see the child murdering bastard get what for.
This isn't to say I'm against majorly shocking and awful things in books or tv series, however, if your going to force your readers/audience to go through a horrific scene, and really burning a ten year old alive is about as horrific as it gets, then there has to be a pretty good dramatic reason why, plots kicked off, motivations changed etc.
Contrast Shirreen's death with Bran Stark's fall, a fall which is the catalyst for so many events, , indeed it's to martin's credit that Jaime Lanister, someone who does something so profoundly nasty, is actually getting something of a redemption story.
Then, there is what Shirreen's death does to the idea of Melisandra's powers. up to now, one of the really troubling things in the series, is that when Melisandra talks about gaining power from spilling king's blood, there is a distinct possibility that in Westeros, she might actually be speaking the truth.
When the leaches containing Edric Storm/Gendry's blood are burned, all three kings, Rob stark, Balan Grayjoy and Jofry Borathean, all end up dead.
Was it Melisandra's magic? We've already seen what her magic did to Renly.
This is again why holding the possibility of Shirreen's death was far more interesting than having it happen, since it could even be argued from a purely utilitarian perspective, that if shirreen's death results in the destruction of Bolton's army, and Stanis gaining power over the north to fight the others, far more death and sufffering would be saved.
However, if Shirreen simply died for nothing, what precisely is! the point.
In fairness this is something I suspect will be dealt with in season 6, and probably early on (I see the first episode is called the red woman), but still it does again cheapen a really aweful moment which by rights should have had far more payoff than it did.
So all in all, nope, i was quite disappointed with the way season 5 ended, and I'm not sure what will happen next.
But we'll see. I'll probably have a bit of a break before starting season 6, since I usually like to do a novel between GoT seasons, though it probably shan't be long.
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