What about anybody with a RA-Aus pilot certificate and anybody with a RPL,
PPL, etc with an endorsement for self launcher?
On Sun, Feb 5, 2017 at 4:06 PM, Richard Frawley <rjfraw...@gmail.com> wrote:
> i put my hand up to take this to the exec. who else (must be GFA member) i
> can count on for support?
>
> step 1: anyone cleared to fly a Self Launcher automatically has L2 OPS
> annotated on GPC (will that work?)
>
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> On 5 Feb 2017, at 4:10 pm, James McDowall <james.mcdowal...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> Elsewhere in this discussion it was noted that the majority of GFA new
> registrations last year were powered. The interests of these people need to
> be accommodated NOW, not when the powerless gliders can't be launched
> because it is too expensive or I just cant move my zimmer frame fast enough
> to run a wing. This will encourage investment. Also GFA needs to develop a
> system of permitting retrofits of power systems (by using the experimental
> certificates provisions) to add value to un-powered gliders. Cutting loose
> independent operators (from clubs) will remove the liability that CFI's and
> RTO's fear. That is operators hold a GPL or GPC issued by GFA and simply
> agree to fly according to the operational arrangements approved by CASA
> under CAO 95.4.
> I am reminded of a couple of quotes attributed to Edmund Burke:
> "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do
> nothing." and "All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good
> conscience to remain silent."
> but most all a common saying:
> “Some people make things happen. Some people watch things happen. And then
> there are those who wonder, 'What the hell just happened?”
>
> I think most of the gliding fraternity will wake up one day and "what the
> hell happened"?
>
> On Sun, Feb 5, 2017 at 3:05 PM, Richard Frawley <rjfraw...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> It is well know that the biggest resistance by far to the current GPC
>> change (which was a good step forward) was by instructors and especially
>> CFI’S and RTO’s
>>
>> I would be more than happy to help champion the issuance of GPC as
>> equivalent to Level 2 Independent ops, but I can tell you now it will the
>> CFI’s and Panels that will resist the most
>>
>> Given however the small number of self launchers, this requirements is
>> still moot.
>>
>> As long as you still need others (tugs, wing runners, ropes) there is no
>> true independence and their in lies the root cause.
>>
>> Bring on the world of electric self launchers and true independence, the
>> sooner the better and even then it only really comes if its private owner
>> or small syndicate.
>>
>> Club aircraft will always be over protected. This is the nature of a
>> shared asset. Shared asserts by human nature are never as well looked after
>> as those owned. (rental cars + public transport vs the private car)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 5 Feb 2017, at 2:28 pm, Future Aviation Pty. Ltd. <
>> ec...@internode.on.net> wrote:
>>
>> Hi James, hello all
>>
>> I have argued along exactly the same lines when I was on the panel as the
>> head coach for SA.
>>
>> Coming from a different country I was bewildered that there is no formal
>> qualification for glider pilots in Australia. I argued
>> for a Glider Pilot Licence (GPL) instead of a Glider Pilot Certificate
>> (GPC) but I was told that only CASA has the authority
>> to issue licences. The GFA wanted to retain control and for mainly this
>> reason we are now stuck with a certificate rather
>> than a licence. A certificate is (almost) worthless but a licence implies
>> that you can operate free of interference by others.
>>
>> For years (or should I say decades) I have argued that the current system
>> is no longer appropriate and need urgent fixing.
>> Please let me commend Mark Newton for articulating this major problem
>> accurately and publicly. He has expressed what
>> many disgruntled glider pilots have long complained about privately and
>> what has caused a lot of bad publicity for gliding
>> over the years. I know that it has prevented many other potential
>> aviators to join. This will continue until suitably qualified
>> pilots can freely operate outside of the supervision of instructors who
>> in many cases have much less knowledge, less
>> know-how, less experience and far less competence than the pilot(s)
>> involved.
>>
>> I hasten to add that I have not experienced an abuse of power by
>> instructors panels or CFIs but I’m aware of the fact that
>> this has occurred in other parts of the country. In too many cases the
>> affected individuals have left the sport or switched to
>> power flying where they were treated with the respect they deserve. Let’s
>> not forget that the power jockey's gain came at
>> our expense! Their member base is still increasing while our numbers are
>> largely on the decline.
>>
>> I can’t help but feel that we have lived with the current system for such
>> a long time that many of us are unwilling to even
>> contemplate a system that makes for truly independent pilots. In the
>> medium term it will undoubtedly be another nail in the
>> gliding coffin down under.
>>
>> However, gliding is not yet in the coffin, and we should not lose hope
>> altogether. Some of you might recall my series of articles
>> with the title “Time for a change?”. These articles were published in
>> 'Gliding Australia’ and proved to be the trigger for the GFA
>> to implement the GPC. However, to my way of thinking this should have
>> only been the first step. The logical next step would
>> be to bring our system in line with best overseas practices.
>> Unfortunately it won’t happen if we don’t get organised and if we
>> don’t drive the necessary changes at grass root level. Only when we push
>> very hard and collectively will we stand a chance
>> to convince the GFA to act and that is time to act *NOW*.
>>
>> Kind regards to all
>>
>> Bernard
>>
>> PS: On request I will make my articles “Time for a change?” available to
>> members of this great forum. I just love it!!!!
>>
>>
>>
>> On 5 Feb 2017, at 9:13 am, James McDowall <james.mcdowal...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> CFI's (Cheif Flying Instructors) responsibility should end when you get a
>> GPC (which really should be a GPL valid in Australia).
>>
>> On Sun, Feb 5, 2017 at 8:27 AM, Richard Frawley <rjfraw...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Yes, the GFA has operational responsibility as that is what is imparted
>>> and set up to do, but the key and central relationship still remains
>>> between CASA and the Pilot. If you breach airspace are they going to chase
>>> the GFA?
>>>
>>> If anyone thinks that you can get a better deal from CASA in terms of
>>> the required process and structure, then you are most welcome to get on the
>>> GFA exec and give it a go.
>>>
>>> Given what CASA demanded in order that the community keep what freedom
>>> we have (ie not go to a GA style process), no one will will argue that what
>>> we have is not a compromise, but I can tell you that without the 2+ years
>>> lot of effort went into the last major round with CASA we would be a lot
>>> worse off.
>>>
>>> If you think that anyone in the last few series of GFA exec teams wanted
>>> to keep any of the current structure for their own personal empowerment,
>>> how wrong you are. It simply means you have not met or known the people
>>> involved nor being involved the activities that were required.
>>>
>>> The only abuse of ‘power’ I have personally observed has been at the CFI
>>> and associated Instructor Panel level. Unfortunately, in the current
>>> structure they are not actually accountable to anyone and can put rules and
>>> process in place as they wish. In this sadly, I have seen some club members
>>> treated quite badly and without justification.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 5 Feb 2017, at 7:28 am, James McDowall <james.mcdowal...@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Nonsense, as the document says the parties to the agreement are the GFA
>>> and CASA. Sure, I agree to the rules of the association which may include
>>> the Operational regulations referred to in CAO 95.4 (which are different to
>>> GFA's Operational regulations) but members are not party to the agreement
>>> entered into by the incorporated separate legal entity that is the GFA.
>>>
>>> On Sat, Feb 4, 2017 at 10:44 PM, Richard Frawley <rjfraw...@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Did you know that the Deed with Casa is between the glider pilot and
>>>> CASA
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 4 Feb 2017, at 11:06 pm, Mark Newton <new...@atdot.dotat.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> On 4 Feb 2017, at 5:55 PM, Greg Wilson <g...@gregwilson.id.au> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> One low cost step toward improving the gliding "product" would be to
>>>> make GPC holders responsible for their own flying instead of relying on a
>>>> L2 instructor's presence at launch.
>>>>
>>>> I can understand how the current system evolved from clubs wanting to
>>>> control pilots in their aircraft but surely it's time for this outdated
>>>> system to be relinquished.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> It didn't evolve from clubs wanting to control pilots in their
>>>> aircraft. It evolved from GFA wanting to control club operations.
>>>>
>>>> GFA implements a chain of command:
>>>>
>>>> Pilot -> Duty Instructor -> CFI -> RTO -> CTO -> (CASA, but we're not
>>>> meant to believe that)
>>>>
>>>> Each link in the chain is, as previously observed, equivalent to a
>>>> "rank." Authority flows downwards, with each layer following the command of
>>>> the layer above. Responsibility flows upwards: The duty instructor is
>>>> "responsible" for the operation (how? never really defined). The CFI is
>>>> "responsible" for the panel. And so on.
>>>>
>>>> Sitting at the middle of everything is GFA, HQ, setting policy
>>>> centrally, implemented by the chain of command.
>>>>
>>>> It's all right there in the MOSP ("standing orders.")
>>>>
>>>> I speculated earlier that it happened like this in the 1950s because so
>>>> many of the early GFA people had military aviation involvement, so setting
>>>> up a command hierarchy would've been a natural way to approach civilian
>>>> aviation. Society was a lot more hierarchical then too.
>>>>
>>>> It isn't anymore.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Enough discussion here may even start movement in that direction from
>>>> GFA. What do you think?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Can't be here. GFA started their own website forums for members
>>>> specifically so they wouldn't need to listen to this one.
>>>>
>>>> Members need to get upset about this. Get organised.
>>>>
>>>> - mark
>>>>
>>>>
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