Dave.
----- Original Message ----- From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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Sent: Wednesday, December 22, 2004 8:11 AM
Subject: Aus-soaring Digest, Vol 15, Issue 22
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Today's Topics:
1. Waikerie Help... (Adam Woolley) 2. Wright Flyer (Anne Elliott) 3. Re: my last word (Harry Medlicott) 4. update - Clubclass at Waikerie (Pete Siddall) 5. UNSUBSCRIBE (Patching) 6. Re: UNSUBSCRIBE (Simon Hackett) 7. Pulley Launching Precautionery Planning (Michael Derry) 8. RE: Pulley Launching Precautionery Planning (RF Developments Pty Ltd)
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Message: 1 Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2004 19:51:39 +1000 From: Adam Woolley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: [Aus-soaring] Waikerie Help... To: "'aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net'" <aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net> Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
G'day All,
My next mission to fulfill my dreams of representing Australia at the
Husbands Bosworth 2005 Junior World Gliding Championships, is to fly at the
Waikerie Club Class Nationals in Jan!
My only problem at the moment is, funds and getting Nick Gilbert's lovely Cirrus C2, to Waikerie...
Just wondering if you, or one of your friends may be travelling to Waikerie
through or from Temora around the 7th or 8th of Jan 05? I would be more
than happy to pay the difference of having a trailer on the back of your
car.
If you or a friend could help out, it would be very much appreciated. I would certainly look after you when you come to Queensland for a comp or holiday!
Best Regards, Adam Woolley
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Message: 2 Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2004 09:56:32 +1100 (AUS Eastern Daylight Time) From: "Anne Elliott" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: [Aus-soaring] Wright Flyer To: <aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net> Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
If you're interested in a bit of news on the Wright Flyer replica check www
narromineglidingclub.com.au
AE
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Message: 3 Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2004 13:45:41 +1100 From: "Harry Medlicott" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] my last word To: "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia." <aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net> Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Paul Barts posting deserves a response.
Firstly, let me congratulate him on putting forward a reasoned, intelligent
contribution.
The reference to Puchacz jockeys was made with some misgivings as it has always been my principle to argue the case and not seem to denigrate the man. Yes, it was pejorative but not intended to reflect on the great majority of pilots who are only interested in flying safely and enjoying their sport.
Unfortunately I have come across a few pilots, mainly instructors, who seem
to take a delight in showing off to students their spinning skills to an
extent that goes beyond the need for spin training. I hope that some
postings do not reflect this attitude.
I personally tell students that they are learning spin prevention training.
We as instructors should emphasise and spend more time on stall recognition,
incipient entry and prompt recovery. Instructors who give students one or
two stalls and incipients and then proceed to full blooded multi turn spins
are perhaps being a little premature.Emphasising safe speed near the ground
and it being the height below which you would prefer not to demonstrate your
spin recovery technique is vitally important. How many instructors show by
practical demonstration at a safe height by flying at a constant speed as
in a circuit at 1.5 V that by mishandling of the controls it is almost
impossible to induce a spin? This is true generally of gliders, hopefully
including Puchaczs. Demonstrating these things is much better than just
saying it.
My own experience is interesting in that my first club used winch launching
and brought in a tug once a year for spin checks. Those being checked were
quite happy using the correct recovery procedures. My second club was winch
launch only and is was sometimes the case that it was difficult for extended
periods to gain height for spin training. After trying the procedure myself
and satisfied as to its safety I would spin train in a Blanik from no less
than 1300 ft. and recover in no more than one turn finishing the exercise at
about 1000 ft. Despite the most careful briefing just a few minutes before,
on their first attempt the students on seeing the ground directly underneath
would instantly pull the control column fully back and for good measure
away from the low wing. I still wonder how most of us would react to a low
level inadvertent spin.
The Puchacz is undeniably a fine strong glider but we must recognise that it
was designed with aerobatic training in mind and as such is supposed to
enter a spin very easily at all C of G positions. If that is what you want,
then go for it but if you want something which is designed around ab initio
training and early solos with minimum risk to the pilot then there are
better options. The comment has been made that training on a glider that
enters spins easily produces pilots more competent in spin recovery. Is
there any evidence that pilots who learnt their spin prevention techniques
in benign, hard to spin, training gliders have an inferior accident record?
If anybody can sustain this suggestion with statistics, then share the news
with the rest of us, it is worth knowing.
My interest in this matter has been solely to keep pilots out of trouble.
The number of pilots killed worldwide while spinning a Puchacz, mostly
intentionally, is to my mind a tragedy and we should do everything in our
power to prevent any similar happening here. The contributions to this chat
page will have done much to make our pilots aware of just what can happen
and hopefully increase their safety margins,
Have a safe and happy Xmas everyone,
Harry Medlicott
P.S. Has anyone heard useful comments about the PW 6? It might be a useful addition to the two seaters affordable for training. H.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Bart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia."
<aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net>
Cc: "aus Soaring" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 2004 1:59 AM
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] my last word
Harry Medlicott wrote:
>Hi All, > >As the one who started the debate on the Puchaz and its safe? handlingqualities, may I say it has been very disappointing to read some of the repsonses by Puchaz jockeys.> > > Hi All
I have followed the discussion regarding Puchacz safety record, particularly as it pertains to spinning, both here and earlier this year on r.a.s.. I have a vested interest, as I am a member of a club that has two of them. As well, I like flying them. As a precursor I should state that I am a relatively new glider pilot having flown some 230 h in about as many starts in 9 different types over the last 3 years. So you may consider my opinions in that light.
I have found Harry?Ts comments interesting in the extreme. Having read
all posts by the ?opro? Puchacz posters I have found them well argued,
considered and largely well supported by the available evidence. So, why
is Harry finding them ?odisappointing?? Has he somehow got some greater
knowledge then those that he disparagingly refers to as Puchacz jockeys,
in what would seem a thinly disguised effort to make their opinions
count for less. I apologise in advance if it was simply a term of
endearment. In another post Harry stated ?oMy third personal conclusion
is that any club which imports a Puchacz until these problems are
resolved has rocks in the head.?, fine he did state that it is his
personal opinion, however given his standing in the gliding community it
is unlikely to be taken as such. So I wonder what gives Harry the right
to judge any club that chooses to import Puchacz, or continue to fly
them. After all if it is not safe to fly a new Puchacz it must be even
less safe to fly an old one. Therefore, by implication, all clubs that
fly them should ground them. I wonder how many clubs would have the
financial resources to replace Puchaczes by the suggested ASK21, even if
they did think this was a good idea. Whilst the number of accidents
ascribed to spins in this aircraft is disturbing, the number should not
be considered in isolation. The Puchacz seems to be the glider of choice
when it comes to spin training, so, is it surprising that it is involved
in more spin related accidents then gliders that are never used for this
purpose. Some claims were made that very experienced pilots were
involved in these accidents. Given the analysis by Bill Dean of the UK
accidents, it would seem that in certain situation experience counts for
little. Further, I recall reading somewhere that out of past 10 Austrian
gliding champions, 6 were killed in gliding accidents. Perhaps greater
level of skill may lead to the acceptance of greater level of risk (and
yes I do know that they fly in the Alps S).
I believe that such personal crusades against a particular aircraft are ill advised. If one adds to it Mike B. comments about the Blanik?Ts on this forum sometime ago, (quote from memory Q. would you fly one? A. ?I would not even walk under one?) it is obvious that a large section of Australian training fleet has been flagged as dangerous. So what is a newcomer to gliding that researches this group to think? Better walk away. Given the often mentioned problem of declining numbers in gliding, hardly a result we would want. And yet, I am not aware of a single fatality in a Puchacz in this country.
I was amused by a comment in this thread that we should discontinue spin training as spins have been designed out of modern gliders. Whilst I do not feel competent to comment on ?ospinability? of modern gliders, it should be painfully obvious to anyone that a very large proportion of Australian club fleet does not consist of those ships. Most gliders I fly were produced in the 70ties and 80ties (well, apart from those Puches). Whilst I would love to fly the latest ASW28 with a ballistic recovery system installed, at this stage I am not willing to commit the 140000 or so dollars required.
To finish on a personal note, I for one will continue to fly the Puchacz happily, do the occasional loop, chandelle or a spin and feel lucky to have an access to a glider that permits me to enjoy these maneuvers.
Kind regards
Paul Bart
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Message: 4 Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2004 18:16:45 +1030 From: Pete Siddall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: [Aus-soaring] update - Clubclass at Waikerie To: aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
We now have 54 pilots entered in the Clubclass Championships at Waikerie. There could be more coming, but already we're well past last year's total. http://www.waikerieglidingclub.com.au/clubclass/
There's been some good flying going on here. This is more like the weather Waikerie people expect! Ann Woolf's weekly write-ups will give you a taste. http://www.waikerieglidingclub.com.au/news.htm
Like last year, we'll have internet connections available in the clubhouse for visitors. The connection is donated by Internode, (thanks Simon, http://www.internode.on.net/ ) and local setup done by my employer, Riverland Internet. This can be used via wireless (802.11b, Wi-fi) or an Ethernet (10baseT) cable, so if your laptop has either - please bring it!
Is anyone still looking for accommodation, or any local information?
Hope to see a bunch of you there in 3 weeks! -- Peter Siddall Waikerie Gliding Club
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Message: 5 Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2004 12:09:25 +1100 From: "Patching" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: [Aus-soaring] UNSUBSCRIBE To: <aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net> Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
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Message: 6 Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2004 13:49:49 +1030 From: Simon Hackett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] UNSUBSCRIBE To: "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia." <aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net> Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
See the last line of this message, Alan :) Its a self-service system :)
Patching wrote:
UNSUBSCRIBE
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Message: 7 Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 02:11:53 +1100 (added by [EMAIL PROTECTED]) From: Michael Derry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: [Aus-soaring] Pulley Launching Precautionery Planning To: Winchdesign Yahoogroups <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, aus-soaring <aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net> Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> (added by [EMAIL PROTECTED]) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Dear All
After some research into our proposed method of pulley launching we are confident it will work however we still want to take precautions in case things don't go as planned. The reverse pulley system using wire seems a proven and very efficient way of getting maximum height out of any strip other than using aerotow. However we inend to use rope and multiple pulleys so that we can launch a glider on a long distance flight after an outlanding (akin to a mobile winch). The pulleys should give the system plenty of legs to reel in the rope promptly if the rope goes slack due to rope stretch.
Issues we are thinking about at the moment include: how to deal with too much tension coming on at the wrong time, or not enough tension. How about the weight and drag of 10 mm rope especially over 1.8 kms or more ? What about using lighter weight rope ? We are thinking of using 6 mm cray pot rope? (cheaper, less stretchy and more hard wearing than poly propelyne)
We would be particularly pleased to hear from anyone using a rope winch !
Regards
Michael Derry Pulley Launch group Western Australia
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Message: 8 Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 08:10:56 +1000 From: "RF Developments Pty Ltd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: RE: [Aus-soaring] Pulley Launching Precautionery Planning To: "'Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.'" <aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net> Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Michael, the Boonah Gliding Club ( 07 54632630 ) is already successfully
launching using pulleys and a car, with a 2:1 , i.e. car drives at 50km/h to
achieve a 100km/h at the glider. You can see this running at Boonah, their
airfield useable is around 900 metres only, with 1300ft launches.
Cheer
Nigel Andrews
RF Developments Pty Ltd
"A Queensland Company devoted to Research and Development in aviation electronics"
Email [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Web www.rf-developments.com
Ph: (61) 7 54635670 Fax: (61) 7 54635695
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-----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Michael Derry Sent: Wednesday, December 22, 2004 1:12 AM To: Winchdesign Yahoogroups; aus-soaring Subject: [Aus-soaring] Pulley Launching Precautionery Planning
Dear All
After some research into our proposed method of pulley launching we are
confident it will work however we still want to take precautions in case
things don't go as planned. The reverse pulley system using wire seems a
proven and very efficient way of getting maximum height out of any strip
other than using aerotow. However we inend to use rope and multiple pulleys
so that we can launch a glider on a long distance flight after an outlanding
(akin to a mobile winch). The pulleys should give the system plenty of legs
to reel in the rope promptly if the rope goes slack due to rope stretch.
Issues we are thinking about at the moment include: how to deal with too much tension coming on at the wrong time, or not enough tension. How about the weight and drag of 10 mm rope especially over 1.8 kms or more ? What about using lighter weight rope ? We are thinking of using 6 mm cray pot rope? (cheaper, less stretchy and more hard wearing than poly propelyne)
We would be particularly pleased to hear from anyone using a rope winch !
Regards
Michael Derry Pulley Launch group Western Australia
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End of Aus-soaring Digest, Vol 15, Issue 22 *******************************************
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