Ian,
I wasnt talking about younger members. I was talking about potential younger members.
Go to a parachute centre sometime. I visited one to have a chute repacked outside Sydney one day. It was a Friday afternoon and there must have been 60-70 people there, with very few people over 30. Can you imagine how uncomfortable and out of place most (i will not say all. I know some damned funky older instructors) 50-70 year old gliding instructors would be in that environment?
It is not a matter of blame, bad attitude or ageism. It is simply lack of common ground. The amount of time you spend not flying when you are learning means that you need something other than the gliding to make you come back. Sitting around for 2 hours in between flights, talking about Lawn Bowls (thanks for that one Peter) does not float my boat. Luckily I was born into the sport (thanks Dad).
I dont care what anyone says. Gliding IS a cool sport. We just need to make life at the gliding club interesting enough to keep them coming back until the sport hooks them.
Nick.
To: "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia." <aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net>
Sent: Thursday, March 24, 2005 9:55 PM
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] mining past glider pilots
Nick,
you and I need to have a beer together and talk this through. I feel sorry for your mates if they have that attitude. The older members have always been a source of derision by younger members. I remember back a few years. I've seen it in tennis, footy and cricket clubs. And when the young ones grow old the younger members say the same things about them!
For a sport that is so individual and selfish, the excuse of blaming the older members remains wrong.
Cheers
Ian P.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Nick Gilbert" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia." <aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net>
Sent: Thursday, March 24, 2005 5:18 PM
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] mining past glider pilots
>Ian Said : "The comment that OFFITTH's put young people off gliding is>crap, look at the other issues first, I'm sure that the young person
doesn't >give up just because the people are old, there are to many other reasons >that need to be addressed."
I must disagree with you Ian. OFITTH's DO put young people off gliding. And it is not that "They give up just because the people are old", they dont start. They turn up for a Joyflight or a flight with a friend, and they leave.
The time it takes in between flights will go much faster if you have similar people to spend it with. I have taken many friends flying (people around my age so sub 30), and without repeating the various words used they all ask me how I can stand to spend all day surrounded by old men.
The problem is perfectly displayed in Camden where I grew up. On a weekend, the young people go to the same 2 or 3 pubs, and the older people go to 1 or 2 bowling clubs / RSL's. People like to spend their leisure time with like-minded people.
Nick.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Patching" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia." <aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net>
Sent: Thursday, March 24, 2005 4:50 PM
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] mining past glider pilots
I think it is interesting to note that people talk about the demise of gliding and some even put their finger on the trouble but then get a bit confused with the next part, ie coming up with smart ways to address the issue.
I've said it before and I'll say it again... The big factor in not retaining people in our sport is TIME not COST or OFITTH. Now you can all think of the problems that this comment should cover. For example, sitting around waiting for a flight, being gone all day from the family etc etc.
Some clubs have addressed this problem by instituting new ideas, ie buying a 2 seater for TIF's alone and rostering people for that role, then booking people to a time schedule
Increasing the number of days the club operates, the clubs at BCS have introduced friday flying and are seriously considering mondays as well. Gympie have wednesday and reports are that members are enjoying the opportunity to fly mid week. Less stress on family committments.
Introducing packages for training. In this world the issue as I have said isn't cost. BUT if you join a club to learn to fly it wears thin when it takes over a year to go solo. No wonder people drop out. I have spoken with many clubs who see the benefit of running courses BUT getting around to it is one of the hardest things to do. I believe that if clubs advertised they would fill up to 3 courses per year with say 6 trainees who, in a week of flying would get very close to solo. People would be happy to pay the cost if they could see quicker results. The off weekends could then be used for consolidation and advanced training of the recent pilots and give the instructors the opportunity to even do their own thing. The opportunity to retain members would rise as people would see a better return for their money. They would also gain better credence with friends, work mates who invariably ask "hows the gliding going, what Not solo yet, how long should it take"
No wonder we don't retain members.
The comment that OFFITTH's put young people off gliding is crap, look at the other issues first, I'm sure that the young person doesn't give up just because the people are old, there are to many other reasons that need to be addressed.
I'm off flying for the next couple of days, I look forward to the comments.
Cheers all
Ian P
Happy Easter.
----- Original Message ----- From: " Christopher Mc Donnell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia." <aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net>
Sent: Thursday, March 24, 2005 2:58 PM
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] mining past glider pilots
I agree with what Emilis has said as it matches my own experiences and I may
be the 1 in 300 he cited.
Peter Creswick said "not up there in the "cool" things to do on a weekend".
Historically the "air mindedness" of the community that existed for most of
the last century and fed gliding is gone.
I still participate because of the airmindedness of my generation and then
rarely on weekends because I have another life related to family, friends &
other interests and that is the only free time that they have.
Ever been labelled "antisocial" because of the time commitment required by
gliding? Ever wonder if the emergence of powered gliders might be driven by
this?
I am not optimistic as to the future of gliding as I feel it is heading to
be a very rich persons sport only, as even dinghy sailing has done, but I am
going to enjoy it while it lasts.
Chris McDonnell
----- Original Message ----- From: "Emilis Prelgauskas" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia."
<aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net>
Sent: Wednesday, 23 March 2005 3:07 PM
Subject: [Aus-soaring] mining past glider pilots
On Thu, 24 Mar 2005 07:00:25 +1000, Robert Hart wrote: >I believe that the ex-glider pilot group is one to which we should >be marketing.
>From the work that has been done at some clubs and within one region in 'exit surveying' glider pilots leaving the sport, the problems have been to get truthful answers. The responses were more in the 'nice' form - 'family commitments', etc. It was impossible to get a sample that gave valid data on cost or access or failure to meet expectations and what these might be as barriers to participation.
This scatter was overlaid by the 'noise' of consumers seeking best price - 'that other club is cheaper' where the pilot then didn't shift to the other club, but exited the sport. (the other club was further away, the ambit claim was more for the home club to lower its fees)
There is a belief, but without backing evidence, that exiting glider pilots fit into the following categories -
- young people moving into career development or family formation phases of their life; where it is hoped they will return once established. And some do. But the ROI is so poor (1 in 300 trainees) that I exited that field after 15 years in it.
- And I am still contacted on a regular cycle by a number of ex-glider pilots (between 30 and 60 in age) with 'let me know when you're flying next; 'cause I want to come out to get back into gliding'; but after a dozen offers of mid week and weekend days declined by them because of 'family commitments' I stop offering.
- there are ex-glider pilots who found that wearing the flight jacket just doesn't pull the birds at the party the way it did in past generations
- that there are a group of ex-glider pilots who were alienated from the sport by its archaic structure giving little flying for large time investment against a background of family quality time demands on them.
The last group would need to be reassured that the gliding they want is available on demand with the sport providing the current generation fleet, surround social scene, ground facilities and support, ease of access to equipment which makes the place attractive both for their own flying and not to be embarrassed to bring their friends.
The embarrassment comes in diverse forms: the untidy facilities (no where to sit out of the heat) and fleet, the access restrictions which make them look bad in front of their friends (public critique of their status to type rating, check flight, flight list placing, aircraft not actually available when booked).
The practical problems that this raises for the sport are: - the capital costs and at what the charge levels would have to be set - the possibility that we need to accept a higher prang rate in return for giving people less onerous access to the sport. (Callers for passenger flights still include sizeable numbers that assume they will be given a single seater to go off and play in just as seen on TV)
In one club structure where all the support was offered if the pilot came with their own glider (to cover the prang rate issue), the response was outrage because exiting glider pilots feel the sport should continue to offer everything at traditional charges as in the past; just add in the professional ground staff and adequate numbers of current generation equipment at no extra charge to meet their expectations. >From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Wed, 23 Mar 2005 15:15:43 +1030 From: Emilis Prelgauskas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: P & W <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> X-Mailer: PocoMail 2.64 (1133) - Licensed Version X-Account: My Account Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 15:15:43 +1030 In-Reply-To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: List as requested Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Status: RQ
On Wed, 23 Mar 2005 21:52:26 +1030, P & W wrote: >Please find attached the list we spoke of >Regards P&W >
With my thanks, a copy of your list will go to Chris bailey, and I'll use the contacts for the documents issue for the first 4 main trades (plumbing, site work, concrete, timber frame)
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