[ Simon pops up and makes a rare comment ] Mike, I'm sure you mean well, but attacking the person rather than the issue isn't good form - on any mailing list. Debates of this sort work much better without ad hominem attacks.
They can often lead to impugning people who seriously are not deserving of it. I know Michael T and he absolutely isn't deserving of that attack in any sense (then again, neither is anyone else). Attack the issue, by all means - with both claws, mate. But not the people. Please. Thanks, Simon [ Simon now returns to quietly lurking - having not done nearly enough gliding of late, due to his brain being consumed of late with working on an IFR rating ] On 14/10/2013, at 8:19 AM, Mike Borgelt <mborg...@borgeltinstruments.com> wrote: > Nice conjecture, but unfortunately for you the BGA DIDN'T have a formal > medical > requirement at the time so there was no "filtering" by formal medical. Same > for the US glider and balloon pilots and both are based on a large number of > events so the stats, even if somewhat uncertain, are likely pretty good. > In any case it is quite obvious that medical causes are a VERY low percentage > of aviation accident causes (~ 1% or lower) and the accident rate isn't > significantly improved by having formal medicals and simply cannot be not > matter how stringent you make them. > Everyone self certifies before going flying anyway as most don't have a > medical immediately before going flying on any given day. > > I'm not sure you actually read my post. Either that or your reading > comprehension is extremely poor. That and your demonstrated lack of ability > to think logically even when not under the pressure of actually flying an > aircraft are a worry. I wouldn't fly with you nor let anyone I cared about do > so. > > Mike > > > > > > > > At 12:26 AM 14/10/2013, you wrote: >> Methinks there is some false logic in that argument. >> >> A counter argument is that the aviation medical system has kept people out >> of the skies that shouldn't be flying due to medical reasons . >> (that is, the medicals are filtering out those who are unfit to fly and >> hence that the cause of incidents due to medical causes is low, 5 out of 800 >> = 0.625%). >> >> Saying that 1% is different to 0.5% is meaningless without confidence >> intervals, and suffers from the problem of rare events being compared. >> >> If there were no medicals, the numbers of accidents do the medical causes >> would be higher. >> >> Regards >> >> Michael >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net on behalf of Mike Borgelt >> Sent: Fri 10/11/2013 4:10 PM >> To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. >> Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Medicals >> >> >> >> No, the lack of value of aviation medicals has >> been demonstrated by long pragmatic and statistical experience. >> I don't have the URL to hand but one study in the >> US was that medical conditions for powered >> aircraft pilots were around 1% of accident >> causes. Fortunately they had a large body of >> experience with glider and balloon pilots who >> self certify and the medical rate of accident >> causes was 0.5% or so amongst them. >> >> The BGA did a study many years ago of 800 glider >> accidents in the UK. IIRC about 5 may have had a >> medical component which would seem to be in >> accordance with the US experience. Of those, >> again IIRC, one was a medical condition that >> wouldn't be picked up in a PPL medical, two had >> PPLs and one was a serving military officer who >> had more frequent medicals of a higher stringency than a PPL medical. >> >> Even CASA recognised this in writing in a >> discussion paper in 2002 about the proposed >> Recreational Pilot's Licence. They proposed the >> same medical standard as a State driver's Licence >> (very little, looking at what drives). They >> specifically said some in the aviation industry >> might be uncomfortable with this but that the >> stats were clear that formal medicals did nothing >> for safety. This was a welcome attitude in the >> regulator - actual evidence based rule making. Of >> course the cretins in the GFA sent a couple of >> people (Meertens and Hall) along to the Minister >> to kill this proposal for gliding, along with the >> collusion of Paul Middleton of the RAAus. One of >> the more notable acts of bastardry in Australian >> aviation which has a long history of such. >> >> Mike >> >> >> >> At 05:41 PM 11/10/2013, you wrote: >> >Content-class: urn:content-classes:message >> >Content-Type: multipart/alternative; >> > boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01CEC655.49080C07" >> > >> >Hi All, >> > >> >To self declare is hardly onerous. >> > >> >If you have any of the conditions that make you >> >ineligible to self declare, then get an Australian Medical Certificate. >> > >> >I now await the bun-fight regarding the value of >> >aviation medicals and whether they have really >> >made the skies safer, using the argument that >> >medicals are costly and someone knows somebody >> >that had a medically incapacitating event just >> >after they had passed their medical etc.. >> > >> >Would the same argument work regarding glider >> >maintenance, saying that form 2 are not >> >worthwhile because there have been instances >> >where gliders have come to grief after passing their form 2 etc. >> > >> >Doctor's hat on >> > >> >Michael >> > >> >================================================== >> >Dr. Michael Texler M.B. B.S. M.D.(Adel) F.R.C.P.A. >> >Consultant Anatomical Pathologist >> >c/- Department of Histopathology, >> >PathWest, B Block, Level 5, >> >Fremantle Hospital, Alma Sreet, Fremantle 6160, WA, Australia >> >Ph: +61 (0)8 9431 2681 >> >Email: michael.tex...@health.wa.gov.au >> > >> > >> >---------- >> >From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net >> >[ mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Matt Gage >> >Sent: Friday, 11 October 2013 14:52 >> >To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. >> >Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Medicals >> > >> >However, the crazy situation is that if a US >> >pilot holds a class 2 medical, they can fly here >> >using that unless they gain Australian >> >citizenship, at which time they have to suddenly >> >self certify or get an Australian class 2 >> > >> >Or an Australian who has lived overseas for many >> >years is unable to use their class 2 on a brief holiday here >> > >> >Looks like we have badly thought through regs, >> >or possibly the interpretations on the web site >> >are too simplistic. I hope it's the latter >> > >> >Matt >> > >> >On 11 Oct 2013, at 17:25, "Christopher Thorpe" >> ><< mailto:ctho...@bigpond.com>ctho...@bigpond.com> wrote: >> >>An Australian flying on an Australian pilot >> >>certificate who is ineligible to self-declare >> >>their medical status must hold an Australian >> >>Medical Certificate. This is the case even if >> >>an Australian also holds citizenship of another country. >> >> >> >>If the person holds dual citizenship of >> >>countries other than Australia and they are >> >>ineligible to self-declare, then they will need >> >>to provide a Medical certificate issued by the >> >>State that issued their Pilot's Licence. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>Christopher Thorpe >> >> >> >> >> >>From: >> >>< >> >>mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net>aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net >> >> >> >>[ mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Ron >> >>Sanders >> >>Sent: Friday, 11 October 2013 4:30 PM >> >>To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. >> >>Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Medicals >> >> >> >>What about those who hold dual citizenship?? >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>On 10 October 2013 21:53, Christopher Thorpe >> >><< mailto:ctho...@bigpond.com>ctho...@bigpond.com> wrote: >> >>The Q&A means exactly what it says. An >> >>AUSTRALIAN pilot must have an AUSTRALIAN Medical Certificate. >> >> >> >>I'm not sure how this morphed into the >> >>requirements for foreign pilots, but there is a >> >>separate page dedicated to foreign pilots at the following link:- >> >>< >> >>http://www.glidingaustralia.org/GFA-Ops/foreignpilots.html>http://www.glidingaustralia.org/GFA-Ops/foreignpilots.html >> >> >> >> >> >>Christopher Thorpe >> >> >> >> >> >>From: >> >>< mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net >> >>>aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net >> >>[ mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of jim >> >>crowhurst >> >>Sent: Thursday, 10 October 2013 9:37 PM >> >>To: aus soaring >> >>Subject: [Aus-soaring] Medicals >> >> >> >>I have just been reading the medicals section >> >>of the OPS part of the GFA website and was >> >>looking at the FAQ. With respect to overseas pilots, I am confused.... >> >> >> >>I am an Australian Citizen but hold a Class >> >>1/Class 2 Medical Certificate issued overseas. >> >>Can I use this to meet GFA's medical requirements? >> >> No. You must hold a Medical Certificate >> >> issued by an Australian Registered Doctor or DAME. >> >> >> >>This means that regardless of any medical >> >>obtained overseas, a visiting pilot on holiday >> >>MUST see an Australian doctor and get signed >> >>off if they have ever had any of the >> >>exclusions, even if they hold a class 1 or 2 >> >>medical in their country. Some of the >> >>conditions are quite common in the age group of >> >>pilots that visit Australia. Surely if they >> >>have been signed off in the UK or USA or >> >>Germany for example they would meet >> >>requirements here? Is there any reciprocal arrangement with certain >> >>countries? >> >> >> >>My concern is that Australia may lose out on >> >>overseas pilots coming to visit because of the >> >>medical requirements. Has this always been this >> >>way or are these new regulations? >> >> >> >>This is more stringent than EASA, and that's saying something! >> >> >> >>Can someone knowledgeable explain the rules for >> >>overseas pilots or is it simply that "if you >> >>can't self certify, see an Australian doctor" and hope they sign off? >> >> >> >>It's not exactly convenient....... >> >> >> >>thanks >> >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >> >>Aus-soaring mailing list >> >>< mailto:Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net >> >>>Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net >> >>To check or change subscription details, visit: >> >>< >> >>http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring>http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >> >>Aus-soaring mailing list >> >>< mailto:Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net >> >>>Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net >> >>To check or change subscription details, visit: >> >>< >> >>http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring>http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring >> >> >> >_______________________________________________ >> >Aus-soaring mailing list >> >Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net >> >To check or change subscription details, visit: >> > http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring >> >> Borgelt Instruments - design & manufacture of >> quality soaring instrumentation since 1978 >> www.borgeltinstruments.com >> tel: 07 4635 5784 overseas: int+61-7-4635 5784 >> mob: 042835 5784 : int+61-42835 5784 >> P O Box 4607, Toowoomba East, QLD 4350, Australia >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Aus-soaring mailing list >> Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net >> To check or change subscription details, visit: >> http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring > Borgelt Instruments - design & manufacture of quality soaring instrumentation > since 1978 > www.borgeltinstruments.com > tel: 07 4635 5784 overseas: int+61-7-4635 5784 > mob: 042835 5784 : int+61-42835 5784 > P O Box 4607, Toowoomba East, QLD 4350, Australia > > _______________________________________________ > Aus-soaring mailing list > Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net > To check or change subscription details, visit: > http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
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