I found this video which demonstrates the spin characteristics of the pooch.
Note the tuck-under on some of the spins. The IS28 used to do this too. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7-UOMTUs7xA#t=21 From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Mike Borgelt Sent: Sunday, 28 December 2014 2:31 PM To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] ASK21 spinning was Re: Spin training So where did you get your knowledge of the Puch spin in at Cal city? Mike On 28 Dec 2014, at 8:59 am, stephenk <steph...@internode.on.net> wrote: And that is what is so annoying about this whole discussion. Only a little factual documentation* exists about the whole issue. Yes, I have seen a number of posts by the person you mentioned but dont recall/cant find one like that. Here's a post from the same person https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.aviation.soaring/JQvuWQYd-9k regarding the "rudder dropping off" a Puchacz, with later posters giving a link to an FAA report which purportedly confirms it. Except the link doesn't confirm it, no incident seems to exist in the FAA database now and another poster said they were from the club in question and the source of the story wasn't telling what really happened. It's happening in this thread too, Derek said he recalled 26 fatalities from Puchacz spin accidents and Bernard has talked about 26 fatal spin accidents. Meanwhile has anyone ever actually seen the original list which was being discussed in the mid 2000's? *And yet another example. Bernard recalls Mike Valentine calling the Puchacz a "widow maker". In my previous reply to Derek I almost made mention of _my_ recollections of what Mike V said. Strangely enough, I was at those instructor seminars which Bernard refers to, as from the late 80's till about 2000 I was CFI of Port Augusta gliding club. I do remember Mike V talking about the Puchacz and calling it an "honest aeroplane". ie in the sense that it behaved in a text book manner, if you mishandled it it would depart into "classic" spin behaviour and because it was heavy it would take a fair bit of space below to recover. Not saying Bernards recollection is entirely wrong either, we might be remembering two different parts of the same elephant. Regards SWK On 28/12/2014 10:41 AM, Mike Borgelt wrote: I've never seen an official NTSB report on it but it was reported on r.a.s. in a thread on Puch spinning after another Puch spin in elsewhere. IIRC it was Cindy Brickner who posted that information. R.a.s. Is probably archived somewhere. Note also we've had one near spin in by two level 3 instructors in W.A., reported here by one of them And a Puch spin in at Narrogin by an experienced instructor with student from low level thermalling. Maybe all the spin recovery training in the world is simply ineffective when the aim is to prevent spinning in the first place. Spinning is not a normal manoeuvre in soaring flight. Spin prevention training doesn't seem to help much either, although both are a good idea. Simulators may help but we have no information. It seems possible that the real problem is that task prioritisation has been incorrectly or not taught, including the ability to not get distracted, focus on just one thing and forget all the others. It only takes a few seconds. As Alan Rundle once said "flying is easy, you can teach a monkey to fly an aeroplane. It is the thinking that goes with it that is hard to teach." Mike On 27 Dec 2014, at 10:05 pm, stephenk <steph...@internode.on.net> wrote: Mike, you've made this claim before. I assume it is another incident, not the Caracole one (because they weren't that high, nor were they ex test pilots) But I've never been able to find any other references to an accident like this and the NTSB database only seems to show up 4 Puchacz accidents in total EventId InvestigationType AccidentNumber EventDate Location Country Latitude Longitude AirportCode AirportName InjurySeverity AircraftDamage AircraftCategory RegistrationNumber Make Model 20040730X01116 Accident LAX04CA270 07/18/2004 Lone Pine, CA United States 36.588333 -118.051944 O26 Lone Pine Non-Fatal Substantial N19SZ PDPS PZL-BIELSKO SZD-50-3 20040406X00422 Accident FTW04LA103 04/04/2004 Cherry Valley, AR United States 35.370834 -90.750556 Non-Fatal Substantial N18SZ PDPS PZL-Bielsko SZD-50-3 20030605X00794 Accident LAX03LA165 05/26/2003 Minden, NV United States 39.000278 -119.750833 MEV Minden-Tahoe Airport Non-Fatal Substantial N503HC PZL-Bielsko SZD-50-3 20001211X10620 Accident LAX98FA235 07/17/1998 CALIFORNIA CITY, CA United States Fatal(2) Destroyed N7215L PZL-Bielsko SZD 50-3 Do you have any other references? Regards SWK On 27/12/2014 10:22 PM, Mike Borgelt wrote: Well one was two USAF test pilot school graduates from at least 3500 feet AGL. Mike _______________________________________________ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
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