All Enclosed are the minutes of last weeks teleconference regards Andrew -----------------
Minutes of the 23rd October 2025 Teleconference Austin-1471 Page 1 of 1 Submitted by Andrew Josey, The Open Group. 27th October 2025 Attendees: Andrew Josey, The Open Group Nick Stoughton, USENIX, ISO/IEC JTC 1/SC 22 OR Eric Blake, Red Hat, The Open Group OR Eric Ackermann, CISPA Geoff Clare, The Open Group Mark Brown Haelwenn Monnier, The Open Group Dhruv McElwaine Apologies * General business We confirmed the calendar for upcoming meetings, the next meeting is November 13th. We briefly discussed draft and ballot planning. Andrew proposed we aim for a ballot in the middle of 2026. We will revisit our planning soon. We also discussed the lack of an IEEE OR. Andrew took an action to reach out to Joe Gwinn and Malia Zaman (our IEEE-SA rep). Mark Brown noted that the Austin Group bugs web site was being impacted by many AI bots, which can cause issues. Let Mark know directly if you are being impacted. In many cases a page reload will clear a 503 error. * Carried Forward Bug 1927: Add sponge utility https://www.austingroupbugs.net/view.php?id=1927 [Action to Eric B] Start a 30-day request for comments on whether The Open Group should sponsor the addition of this interface. glibc realloc() behavior [Action to Eric B] - respond to the thread and invite Alejandro to open a bug against POSIX if we still need to address wording issues Update 2025-06-26: discussion on mailing lists is still ongoing; EricB or Alejandro will open a bug soon Bug 1941: Add widely-implemented options to grep https://www.austingroupbugs.net/view.php?id=1941 We understand Mirabilos runs a custom distribution of BSD: http://www.mirbsd.org/about.htm http://www.mirbsd.org/htman/i386/man1/grep.htm ACTION: David Wheeler to do more research and update the bug before next meeting * New Business Bug 1949: Restore the traditional realloc(3) specification OPEN https://www.austingroupbugs.net/view.php?id=1949 Leave open for bow. We returned to bug 1913 Bug 1913: clarify/define the meaning of n<&n and m>&m redirections https://www.austingroupbugs.net/bug_view_page.php?bug_id=1913 Accepted as marked, interp required, tc1-2024 tag Interpretation response: The standard is unclear on this issue, and no conformance distinction can be made between alternative implementations based on this. This is being referred to the sponsor. Rationale: As the submitter points out, the wording in the standard "one input file descriptor from another" implies that they are two different file descriptors, and so the behavior of n<&n is currently unspecified (implicitly). Likewise for m>&m. There is an example in XRAT C.2.9.3 Lists (under "Asynchronous AND-OR Lists") which shows that the intention is for <&0 (and therefore also 0<&0) to be a no-op, but since this is non-normative it does not affect the requirements of the standard. Notes to the Editor (not part of this interpretation): On page 2497 line 81097-81118 replace sections 2.7.5 and 2.7.6 with: 2.7.5 Duplicating a File Descriptor The input redirection operator: [n]<&word and output redirection operator: [n]>&word shall duplicate one input file descriptor or output file descriptor, respectively, from another, or shall close one. If word consists of one or more decimal digits which evaluate to a value not equal to n (or 0 or 1, respectively, if n is not specified), the file descriptor denoted by n (or standard input or standard output, respectively, if n is not specified) shall be made to be a copy of the file descriptor denoted by word. If the digits in word do not represent an already open file descriptor, a redirection error shall result (see [xref to 2.8.1]). If the file descriptor denoted by word represents an open file descriptor that is not open for input or open for output, respectively, a redirection error may result. If word and n evaluate to the same open file descriptor, or if n is not specified and word evaluates to 0 or 1, respectively, no duplication shall occur. If the shell would have closed the file descriptor because it was opened using [xref to exec] and has a value greater than 2, when the redirection is being performed in a command that will execute a non-built-in utility the file descriptor shall instead remain open when the utility is executed. If word evaluates to '-', then file descriptor n (or standard input or standard output, respectively, if n is not specified) shall be closed. Attempts to close a file descriptor that is not open shall not constitute an error. If word evaluates to something else, the behavior is unspecified. and renumber 2.7.7 to 2.7.6. On page 2506 line 81501 section 2.9.3.1 Asynchronous AND-OR Lists, change: If, and only if, job control is disabled, the standard input for the subshell in which an asynchronous AND-OR list is executed shall initially be assigned to an open file description that behaves as if /dev/null had been opened for reading only. This initial assignment shall be overridden by any explicit redirection of standard input within the AND-OR list. to: If, and only if, job control is disabled, the standard input for the subshell in which an asynchronous AND-OR list is executed shall be assigned to an open file description that behaves as if /dev/null had been opened for reading only, except that: This assignment shall not be performed if there is any explicit redirection of standard input, other than <tt><&0</tt> (or equivalent), within the AND-OR list. This assignment need not be performed if the AND-OR list is within a compound command and either there is any explicit redirection, other than <tt><&0</tt> (or equivalent), of the compound command's standard input or the compound command follows the control operator '|'. On page 3893 line 135146 section C.2.7.5, change the section heading: Duplicating an Input File Descriptor to: Duplicating a File Descriptor After page 3893 line 135152 section C.2.7.5, add a paragraph: If word and n evaluate to the same open file descriptor, the operation is a no-op except in shells which set the close-on-exec flag for file descriptors greater than 2 opened using [xref to exec]. In these shells, a redirection of this form can be used to clear the close-on-exec flag so that the file descriptor will remain open when executing a non-built-in utility. For example: exec 3<infile 4>outfile utility 3<&3 4>&4 One use for this feature, together with command and exec, is to differentiate between utility and redirection errors. For example: ( command exec 3<infile 4>outfile || exit 128; utility 3<&3 4>&4 ) case $? in 0) # success ;; 128) # redirection error ... ;; *) # utility error ... ;; esac (This assumes utility is known not to use 128 as an exit status and that the shell does not detect an internal error such as resource exhaustion.) On page 3893 line 135155-135158, delete section C.2.7.6 Duplicating an Output File Descriptor On page 3894 line 135159, change section number C.2.7.7 to C.2.7.6 On page 3901 line 135455 section C.2.9.3 Lists, change: Since the connection of the input to the equivalent of /dev/null is considered to occur before redirections, the following script would produce no output: exec < /etc/passwd cat <&0 & wait to: The assignment of standard input from an open file description that behaves like /dev/null is not overridden by an explicit <tt><&0</tt> redirection because this redirection does not perform a duplication and thus has no effect on where standard input comes from. This was the original Korn Shell behavior but was not clearly required by versions of this standard earlier than Issue 8 TC1, although in all those versions there was rationale stating that the following script would produce no output: exec < /etc/passwd cat <&0 & wait Bug 1950: Create a detached thread with a function that returns void https://www.austingroupbugs.net/view.php?id=1950 Rejected While the idea may have merit, the Austin Group is required to consider existing implementations in the standardization process. We advise attempting to get at least one existing libc implementation to implement the proposal, possibly under a slightly different name like pthread_create_detached_np to minimize issues with future namespace changes, at which point it will be easier to augment POSIX to standardize the interface if a sponsor for the new interface is found. For now, this issue is being rejected for lack of implementation practice. * Next Steps We will restart on 1949. Bugs to return to, bugs 1616, 1941 and 1913. The next call is on Thu 2025-11-13 (WEBEX meeting - general bugs) The calls are for 90 minutes Calls are anchored on US time. (8am Pacific) Please check the calendar invites for dial in details. Bugs are at: https://austingroupbugs.net An etherpad is usually up for the meeting, with a URL using the date format as below: https://posix.rhansen.org/p/20xx-mm-dd (For write access this uses The Open Group single sign on, for those individuals with gitlab.opengroup.org accounts. Please contact Andrew if you need to be setup) -------- Andrew Josey The Open Group Austin Group Chair Email: [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> Apex Plaza, Forbury Road,Reading,Berks.RG1 1AX,England To learn how we maintain your privacy, please review The Open Group Privacy Statement at http://www.opengroup.org/privacy. 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