Paul, I still believe that the wide scope Avalon has gotten is intimately tied to the branding problem. However, my chainsaw reduction was intended for code and not number of committers. If such a reduction would mean loss of committers it simply can not be done, period.
Leo, yes, the "use MicroContainer to move all of Excalibur to Commons" is just a theoretical possibility. It is still something I would like to see, but as you say, it is simply not possible, practically speaking. Regarding the RI issue: > > 1. framework > > Avalon Framework interfaces and reference implementation. > I personally feel RI should be separate from impl, as if you can have multiple impls, people > that have a say about spec should not have to concern themselves with the RI. Agree. Lousy choice of words on my part here. I meant "sample implementation", so that one who has downloaded framework can see how the interfaces are intended to work together. Maybe just stuff Tweety in there? Not in the framework jar, but in the framework distro - just something to show in code and by example what we mean by the interfaces. > > 4. site > > 5. sandbox > > The 4 and 5 is basically just for developers. > hmm. "site" would contain docs, which target users too. Feel I miss the point? I see documentation as being part of the subproject it documents. Let's put it this way: The "site" subproject is not something a user would download. That's what I meant. > 1. get development kit (with kitchen sink and microwave) +1 That is something I missed. My point of view is that the user coming in first and foremost wants to use a component they have seen (DataSource, for example), and isn't interested in developing. That's why I had the welcome -> pick a container -> pick components sequence. So maybe two approaches are needed: One for people who want to use avalon components, and one for those who want to build their own app with Avalon. Basically the first group -> MicroContainer, the rest -> Fortress and Phoenix? > I want Avalon to be: Specification + Implementation + > Component Directory + Development Kit +1, +1, +1, +1 > + Nurturing place for avalon-based stuff. I am a bit divided on this point. I am -1 on it as I think it is this that gave Avalon a way-too-wide scope. Particularly, there's no upper time limit for the nurturing and we end up like a mini SourceForge with all sorts of applications being developed under the Avalon name. I have no problem if the "stuff" is the kind that could fit in scratchpad, but several of the apps are not that kind, as they do not really fit the scope of Avalon as a Java Server Framework. And it is *those* I have a problem with. Again, whatever I think is best from a branding/organization perspective isn't what's really best. Removing this nurturing place would cause a loss of committers and so I vote: +1 Ultimately, this is a deficiency in Jakarta. The same one I mentioned at the top of my previous email, and that causes projects to become isolated islands. One can argue that the strict rules for top-level projects are needed to avoid an explosion of top-level projects, but all it has gotten us is an explosion of subprojects, with the added damage of those subprojects being more part of their parent top-level project then of Jakarta, thus the duplication of effort among top-level projects, as the subprojects of project A do not come in contact with people from subprojects of project B. Maybe the solution is an "incubator" style project in Jakarta where you can keep your project until it has reached adulthood. The acceptance of projects into the incubator would be done much the same way as the subprojects are started now. The difference is that there are time limits for the projects: Viable community after 1 year or you are out unless there are special circumstances. Or something. In return, it should be *much* easier to start a new project than it is now. this will not solve the problems we have now, but after a while maybe, since all committers have "been in the incubator" together... Though I am way out of my league politically now, is jakarta-general the place for these types of pissing and moaning? (And does not the question I just posed show just how Avalon-centric *I* am?) /LS -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> For additional commands, e-mail: <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
