On Sunday 02 September 2007 12:33, Bastian Friedrich wrote:
> Hi,
>
> On Sonntag 02 September 2007, Kern Sibbald wrote:
> [...]
>
> > > FIFOs. This feature is crucial for our needs: Backing up process
> > > output instead of files.
>
> [...]
>
> > The big problems are that this project is currently rather ill
> > defined, and it is rather low in user priority.
>
> The votes obviously show this low priority; I frankly don't understand
> that, though. Every organization/company/unit where a database is set
> up (including, but not restricted to SQL DBMS) should need a database
> backup system - something that is not currently available in Bacula,
> and possibly the most significant difference from the commercial
> competitors. YMMV.

Well, "something that is not currently available in Bacula" is not correct. 
There are currently two ways to accomplish this:

1. Write the data out through a FIFO
2. Write the data out to a file and backup the file.

Neither of these may be an ideal solution, but they are what we have and they 
do work.

>
> > It suffers from some
> > of the same problems that plugins face
>
> The reason I used the subject I used is that I regard the two subjects
> as potentially equivalent: A set of two executables (binary, shell
> scripts, ...) in fact defines an interface for a plugin.
>
> When I wrote my initial mail, I had not yet read James' posting on the
> topic. His concerns about incremental and differential backups possibly
> result in a third "boolean executable" for the decision on whether to
> back up a file/fifo/item.

Today, Bacula decides what to backup, so there is no need for a third 
executable. When plugins are available, we *may* allow the decision to backup 
or not be an option of the plugin.

>
> > -- that is how to make the
> > Volume self contained after adding this kind of feature. The Volume
> > format currently is totally self contained in that a restore requires
> > only the FD -- it doesn't even need a current definition of a FileSet
> > to work.
>
> This of course is correct for all machines of interest; with a little
> abstraction, though, it is only valid for systems that have a similar
> semantics on their file systems. Adding plugins adds a level of
> semantics.
>
> Unfortunately, the current level of file system semantics as required by
> Bacula is used by approximately 100% of the systems out there (side
> note: the file system available on my PalmOS PDA would _not_ be
> sufficient for a Bacula restore), while adding the plugins would lower
> this level to, well, approximately 0% :-/
>
> > 1. Some important design decisions that permit the Volume to remain
> > self contained and independent of FileSet definitions.
>
> In my oppinion, "if plugins (executables) are used during backup,
> equivalent plugins need to be in place during restore, or else a
> fallback (e.g. writing stdout to a certain file) jumps in" would be a
> valid decision.

Unlike a redirection of stdin/stdout interface that you requested, I don't 
think "writing stdout" will be possible with a plugin.  A plugin will not 
always, but in most cases have its own Stream -- i.e. its own format on the 
Volume. No other part of Bacula would know how to read the data and interpret 
it. 

>
> Independence of a FileSet definition can be achieved by storing the
> fact "is plugin/executable based, and that plugin is..." along with the
> data - e.g. by using a different file name schema, similarly to how
> it's done in afbackup.

Yes, what you write is perfectly correct, and obvious, but to get there is a 
lot of detailed design work that has not been done.  Getting it right is 
surprisingly hard.

>
> > 2. A programmer.
>
> Er. Yes. :)

I think I have a solution for that, but it will take about a year to implement 
it, namely a commercial Bacula support company, with programmers paid from 
the support fees.  :-)

Regards,

Kern

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