Hi, Here is the log of the chatroom at http://farsides.com/chat/ (or irc://irc.freenode.net/#farsides) for the 2011-10-20.
2011-10-20 06:44:33+0000 <blanchard> antoviaque: hello. I'm trying to login to safari with username [email protected] (i had that) but not working 2011-10-20 06:44:44+0000 <blanchard> can you send me the login/pwd ? 2011-10-20 06:45:00+0000 <blanchard> btw for your card i think i know why it doesn't work 2011-10-20 06:45:35+0000 <blanchard> you have the DX Games card. We need to retrieve the new one (farsides). I'll need you id next time i see u for that 2011-10-20 07:43:17+0000 <antoviaque> sent you the password 2011-10-20 07:43:40+0000 <antoviaque> blanchard: ohh, ok for the card : ) 2011-10-20 08:05:29+0000 mtyaka (mtyaka) is now online 2011-10-20 08:42:10+0000 <blanchard> off to school, bbl 2011-10-20 08:42:24+0000 blanchard (blanchard) is now offline 2011-10-20 09:35:36+0000 tartarugafeliz (tartarugafeliz) is now online 2011-10-20 09:46:24+0000 dachary (dachary) is now online 2011-10-20 10:31:49+0000 <antoviaque> I have to go to a meeting of assedics (the people who give me money every month :) ). It starts 30 minutes before the meeting and it can't be moved, so I'm not going to be there on time 2011-10-20 10:32:05+0000 <antoviaque> giving my report for someone to copy/paste then :) 2011-10-20 10:32:11+0000 <antoviaque> eve: yesterday Played with newcomers on Card Stories, bugs & stories from feedback, 121 with mtyaka, some admin, buddypress, plugin system for Plebia 2011-10-20 10:32:11+0000 <eve> antoviaque: That didn't seem to agree with me 2011-10-20 10:32:11+0000 <antoviaque> eve: today Meeting assedic, play with newcomers on Card Stories, work on a few bugs from Card Stories, some work on Plebia as time allows 2011-10-20 10:32:11+0000 <eve> antoviaque: That didn't go down very well. Burp. 2011-10-20 10:32:11+0000 <antoviaque> eve: blockers none! 2011-10-20 10:32:11+0000 <eve> antoviaque: I'm not feeling too well 2011-10-20 11:36:26+0000 blanchard (blanchard) is now online 2011-10-20 11:40:10+0000 <blanchard> antoviaque: safari book is done 2011-10-20 11:45:02+0000 <tartarugafeliz> he went to the assedic :) 2011-10-20 11:45:10+0000 <blanchard> oki :) 2011-10-20 12:31:31+0000 <tartarugafeliz> eve: start daily meeting 2011-10-20 12:31:31+0000 <eve> tartarugafeliz: Excuse me? 2011-10-20 12:31:38+0000 <tartarugafeliz> is it like that? 2011-10-20 12:32:02+0000 <tartarugafeliz> hahaah blanchard mtyaka dachary how do I start the meeting? 2011-10-20 12:32:13+0000 <blanchard> sure tartarugafeliz go ahead ! 2011-10-20 12:32:23+0000 <blanchard> ah sorry 2011-10-20 12:32:32+0000 <blanchard> didn't read you well:) 2011-10-20 12:32:34+0000 <tartarugafeliz> eve: start meeting 2011-10-20 12:32:34+0000 <eve> tartarugafeliz: I'm not your bitch 2011-10-20 12:32:34+0000 <tartarugafeliz> pffff 2011-10-20 12:32:47+0000 <blanchard> hehe 2011-10-20 12:33:01+0000 <tartarugafeliz> haahahahha 2011-10-20 12:33:01+0000 <blanchard> eve: start dailymeeting 2011-10-20 12:33:01+0000 * eve antoviaque arbrandes blanchard blanchard1 dachary mtyaka tartarugafeliz and al: daily meeting starts! Please say "eve_: yesterday|today|blockers <your report>" 2011-10-20 12:33:11+0000 <tartarugafeliz> ohhh that's how 2011-10-20 12:33:15+0000 <tartarugafeliz> thank you blanchard! 2011-10-20 12:33:19+0000 <blanchard> yw :) 2011-10-20 12:33:26+0000 <tartarugafeliz> eve: yesterday I played with the newcomers, wrote on the buddypress about TF project, created a page for CS on Facebook, almost finishing the video. 2011-10-20 12:33:26+0000 <eve> Done: I played with the newcomers, wrote on the buddypress about TF project, created a page for CS on Facebook, almost finishing the video 2011-10-20 12:33:26+0000 <tartarugafeliz> eve: today I'm going to finish the video and play a lot with the newcomers :) 2011-10-20 12:33:26+0000 <eve> Next: I'm going to finish the video and play a lot with the newcomers :) 2011-10-20 12:33:26+0000 <tartarugafeliz> eve: blockers none. 2011-10-20 12:33:26+0000 <eve> Blockers: none 2011-10-20 12:33:29+0000 <blanchard> tartarugafeliz: wanna start ? 2011-10-20 12:33:31+0000 <tartarugafeliz> :P 2011-10-20 12:33:33+0000 <blanchard> :) 2011-10-20 12:33:48+0000 <blanchard> eve, yesterday : accounting work (EoY) 2011-10-20 12:33:48+0000 <eve> Done: : accounting work (EoY) 2011-10-20 12:33:48+0000 <blanchard> eve, today : N/A (school & job search) 2011-10-20 12:33:48+0000 <eve> Next: : N/A (school & job search) 2011-10-20 12:33:48+0000 <blanchard> eve, blockers : None 2011-10-20 12:33:48+0000 <eve> Blockers: : None 2011-10-20 12:34:01+0000 <tartarugafeliz> And this is for Xaviereve: yesterday Played with newcomers on Card Stories, bugs & stories from feedback, 121 with mtyaka, some admin, buddypress, plugin system for Plebia 2011-10-20 12:34:01+0000 <tartarugafeliz> 12:31 2011-10-20 12:34:01+0000 <tartarugafeliz> eve: today Meeting assedic, play with newcomers on Card Stories, work on a few bugs from Card Stories, some work on Plebia as time allows 2011-10-20 12:34:01+0000 <eve> Next: Meeting assedic, play with newcomers on Card Stories, work on a few bugs from Card Stories, some work on Plebia as time allows 2011-10-20 12:34:10+0000 <tartarugafeliz> eve: yesterday Played with newcomers on Card Stories, bugs & stories from feedback, 121 with mtyaka, some admin, buddypress, plugin system for Plebia 2011-10-20 12:34:10+0000 <eve> Done: Played with newcomers on Card Stories, bugs & stories from feedback, 121 with mtyaka, some admin, buddypress, plugin system for Plebia 2011-10-20 12:34:10+0000 <tartarugafeliz> 12:31 2011-10-20 12:34:11+0000 <tartarugafeliz> eve: today Meeting assedic, play with newcomers on Card Stories, work on a few bugs from Card Stories, some work on Plebia as time allows 2011-10-20 12:34:11+0000 <eve> Next: Meeting assedic, play with newcomers on Card Stories, work on a few bugs from Card Stories, some work on Plebia as time allows 2011-10-20 12:34:16+0000 <blanchard> tartarugafeliz: haven't found the time to look at your project on buddypress but i will :) 2011-10-20 12:34:18+0000 <tartarugafeliz> that's antoviaque 2011-10-20 12:34:25+0000 <tartarugafeliz> no rush! :) 2011-10-20 12:34:30+0000 <tartarugafeliz> mtyaka: are you there? :) 2011-10-20 12:34:47+0000 <dachary> (child sick) 2011-10-20 12:34:58+0000 <blanchard> sorry to hear that dachary 2011-10-20 12:35:01+0000 <tartarugafeliz> oh 2011-10-20 12:35:17+0000 <tartarugafeliz> its the winter approaching isn't it? 2011-10-20 12:35:20+0000 <dachary> (nothing bad, flew) 2011-10-20 12:35:38+0000 <blanchard> ok 2011-10-20 12:35:50+0000 <tartarugafeliz> ok, anyone wants to say anything else? 2011-10-20 12:35:54+0000 <tartarugafeliz> oh wait antoviaque is here 2011-10-20 12:35:56+0000 <blanchard> i'm good :) 2011-10-20 12:36:26+0000 <antoviaque> re : ) 2011-10-20 12:36:31+0000 <blanchard> hey 2011-10-20 12:36:45+0000 * antoviaque reading the backlog 2011-10-20 12:37:08+0000 <blanchard> antoviaque: i was thinking about arbrandes and mtyaka comments on how difficult to read long threads on buddypress 2011-10-20 12:38:02+0000 <blanchard> I'm ok to use the ml when we feel that discussion becomes too long on buddypress. And then come back to buddypress for the conclusion when an agreement is reach 2011-10-20 12:38:10+0000 <blanchard> what do you think ? 2011-10-20 12:38:21+0000 <antoviaque> blanchard: nope, we went there aqlready imho 2011-10-20 12:38:42+0000 <blanchard> not really : we used the ml for everything 2011-10-20 12:38:53+0000 <antoviaque> some will always prefer forums if we take the ML, and the ML if we use forums, it will never end : ) 2011-10-20 12:39:07+0000 <antoviaque> not good to multiply communication channels imho 2011-10-20 12:39:34+0000 <antoviaque> we have something working - we can look to improve the way we use the buddypress, but I wouldn't change again now 2011-10-20 12:39:39+0000 <tartarugafeliz> agreed 2011-10-20 12:39:44+0000 <blanchard> if you think so I'll follow you antoviaque, you're more used than me to these channels. But i hear them and i don't know how to adress their concern. 2011-10-20 12:40:00+0000 <antoviaque> fyi there is the forum feature that we haven't tried, that can help improve things here imho 2011-10-20 12:40:16+0000 arbrandes (arbrandes) is now online 2011-10-20 12:40:22+0000 <blanchard> hi arbrandes ;à 2011-10-20 12:40:24+0000 <blanchard> :) 2011-10-20 12:40:32+0000 <arbrandes> forgive my lateness 2011-10-20 12:40:35+0000 <arbrandes> hey blanchard :) 2011-10-20 12:40:48+0000 <antoviaque> blanchard: it's one of the graals of communication to find a channel that would satisfy everyone, but so far I don;t thing it exist, sadly :/ 2011-10-20 12:40:53+0000 <antoviaque> arbrandes: hey arbrandes! 2011-10-20 12:41:01+0000 <arbrandes> hey antoviaque 2011-10-20 12:41:16+0000 <antoviaque> we were talking forums vs ML :p 2011-10-20 12:41:20+0000 <arbrandes> ohhhhh 2011-10-20 12:41:27+0000 <arbrandes> important discussion :) 2011-10-20 12:41:29+0000 <antoviaque> hehehe 2011-10-20 12:41:30+0000 <arbrandes> I vote for ML 2011-10-20 12:41:31+0000 <arbrandes> ;) 2011-10-20 12:41:36+0000 <antoviaque> you have a sixth sense ;p 2011-10-20 12:41:41+0000 <antoviaque> ahahah 2011-10-20 12:41:58+0000 <arbrandes> And if not ML, a Google Group 2011-10-20 12:42:06+0000 <arbrandes> (ie, a usenet forum) 2011-10-20 12:42:10+0000 <antoviaque> I haven't replied yet on the buddypress, but basically we tried it, and it didn't work 2011-10-20 12:42:23+0000 <antoviaque> we tried to explain, made tutorials, etc 2011-10-20 12:42:40+0000 <blanchard> I'm neutral on that, I like both. I'll trust you guys with the best solution. 2011-10-20 12:42:54+0000 <antoviaque> but at the end, what I'vew always seen is this: some will always prefer forums if we take the ML, and the ML if we use forums 2011-10-20 12:43:20+0000 <arbrandes> What about Usenet/Google groups? They're a nice middle ground, I think. 2011-10-20 12:43:40+0000 <arbrandes> What I can't stand is buddypress 2011-10-20 12:43:41+0000 <arbrandes> sorry 2011-10-20 12:43:42+0000 <arbrandes> it just sucks 2011-10-20 12:43:51+0000 <antoviaque> arbrandes: we had even better, a forum/ml gateway 2011-10-20 12:43:53+0000 <arbrandes> (for this, I mean) 2011-10-20 12:43:57+0000 <antoviaque> yep 2011-10-20 12:44:23+0000 <arbrandes> Any old phpBB forum would be better 2011-10-20 12:44:30+0000 <arbrandes> (although I still prefer ML) 2011-10-20 12:44:36+0000 <blanchard> for me the only problem w/ buddypress is : 1) long discussions 2) some notifications I don't receive. For the rest it seems ok to me. 2011-10-20 12:44:41+0000 <antoviaque> what I can propose is to install the forum feature, bbpress 2011-10-20 12:44:59+0000 <antoviaque> what sucks imho is that we try to have big conversations in the status updates, which aren't made for this 2011-10-20 12:45:37+0000 <arbrandes> But is the forum any good? 2011-10-20 12:46:12+0000 <antoviaque> bbpress is a real forum yep - let me get the url so you can see 2011-10-20 12:46:32+0000 <mtyaka> hi everybody, sorry to be late 2011-10-20 12:46:41+0000 <antoviaque> http://bbpress.org/ 2011-10-20 12:46:43+0000 <antoviaque> hi mtyaka! 2011-10-20 12:47:07+0000 <arbrandes> What I just don't get, dudes, is how a forum is better than a ML for what we intend to use it 2011-10-20 12:47:13+0000 <arbrandes> Seriously 2011-10-20 12:47:34+0000 <arbrandes> We're just going to read the forum when we get... wait for it .... MAIL notifications, lol 2011-10-20 12:47:49+0000 <arbrandes> Doesn't it make for sense, then, to just ANSWER the email? 2011-10-20 12:48:01+0000 <arbrandes> Instead of having to click on a link, find the new reply button, etc... 2011-10-20 12:48:03+0000 <antoviaque> arbrandes: question of audience - some have their habits withs mls, others with forums, and it's almost impossible to convince one another that the other is any good :) 2011-10-20 12:48:37+0000 <blanchard> (arbrandes: legen... wait for it... dary) 2011-10-20 12:48:49+0000 <arbrandes> Who's arguing for forums here? 2011-10-20 12:48:55+0000 <tartarugafeliz> me. 2011-10-20 12:48:58+0000 <tartarugafeliz> :) 2011-10-20 12:49:01+0000 <arbrandes> Seriously? 2011-10-20 12:49:02+0000 <arbrandes> Why? 2011-10-20 12:49:02+0000 <mtyaka> the problem with buddypress for me is that when i get a notification about a reply to something i often have no idea what thread it belongs to 2011-10-20 12:49:06+0000 <arbrandes> I just don't understand, sorry 2011-10-20 12:49:07+0000 <tartarugafeliz> yes 2011-10-20 12:49:22+0000 <mtyaka> then i need to open up buddypress and search for the right thread 2011-10-20 12:49:23+0000 <arbrandes> mtyaka, precisely 2011-10-20 12:49:32+0000 <mtyaka> and i also seem to miss some notifications 2011-10-20 12:49:38+0000 <arbrandes> hehehe, blanchard 2011-10-20 12:49:54+0000 <antoviaque> mtyaka: saw what I proposing, about bbpress? 2011-10-20 12:50:18+0000 <tartarugafeliz> well what's to understand? I used ML already and it was a huge mess to follow, because there was thousands of emails on my inbox and I couldn't follow everything. Now that I'm using the buddypress I can organize myself better⦠I think its a matter of taste too 2011-10-20 12:50:20+0000 <mtyaka> antoviaque: i'm not familiar with it, need to check it out 2011-10-20 12:50:35+0000 <tartarugafeliz> of course it takes more time its true 2011-10-20 12:50:41+0000 <antoviaque> yep, question of point of view 2011-10-20 12:51:15+0000 <antoviaque> and most players are definitely on the forum side of things, you'll have a hard time convincing players to follow a ml 2011-10-20 12:51:17+0000 <antoviaque> plus a forum scales 2011-10-20 12:51:45+0000 <mtyaka> if the notifications contained texts of the whole thread, it would work much better for me 2011-10-20 12:51:52+0000 <tartarugafeliz> people come to read what we're talking about because its all open information, and with the buddypress is organized visually 2011-10-20 12:51:57+0000 <antoviaque> anyway, I don';t think we'll be able to solve the forum vs mls troll today :) 2011-10-20 12:52:05+0000 <tartarugafeliz> so its easier to follow 2011-10-20 12:52:15+0000 <tartarugafeliz> yeap, I really need to go back to work :) 2011-10-20 12:52:21+0000 <antoviaque> mtyaka: you have daily notifications btw 2011-10-20 12:52:37+0000 <antoviaque> (digest) 2011-10-20 12:52:47+0000 <mtyaka> oh... i didn't know that 2011-10-20 12:54:12+0000 <antoviaque> btw, my main point is not that forum is better than the ml (personally I prefer MLs), but that we need to acknowledge that a lot of people just don't want it (ie, usually most non-technical people) 2011-10-20 12:54:50+0000 <antoviaque> so we can say "too bad for them", but if we want to bridge the gap with players, it doesn't start very well... 2011-10-20 12:55:07+0000 <arbrandes> Can't we separate internal communication (ML) from external (forum)? 2011-10-20 12:55:18+0000 <arbrandes> I've seen other projects do this 2011-10-20 12:55:26+0000 <arbrandes> for the same reason 2011-10-20 12:55:48+0000 <antoviaque> one of the main goals of farsides is avoid creating barriers like that one :) 2011-10-20 12:56:01+0000 <tartarugafeliz> but that goes against our values - yeap 2011-10-20 12:56:21+0000 <antoviaque> btw, it doesn't mean either that nothing should be done to make it handy for you, you have good complaints imho 2011-10-20 12:56:30+0000 <arbrandes> I don't see it as a philosophical issue, I see it as a practical one 2011-10-20 12:56:33+0000 <arbrandes> Forums suck 2011-10-20 12:56:35+0000 <arbrandes> Buddypress sucks 2011-10-20 12:56:38+0000 <arbrandes> For REAL communication 2011-10-20 12:56:53+0000 <arbrandes> And that's what we need 2011-10-20 12:56:59+0000 <antoviaque> uh 2011-10-20 12:57:02+0000 <arbrandes> Especially since time is what people don't have now 2011-10-20 12:57:23+0000 <antoviaque> forums suck, in your opinion, right? 2011-10-20 12:57:33+0000 <arbrandes> big time 2011-10-20 12:57:44+0000 <arbrandes> For _developer_ communication, I mean 2011-10-20 12:57:48+0000 <arbrandes> There's a place for everything 2011-10-20 12:59:13+0000 <arbrandes> My problem with forums is that they try to reinvent the email wheel. 2011-10-20 12:59:17+0000 <antoviaque> So, the thread about the next steps for the project should be on a mailing-list, even if it makes it harder for players to join the discussion? 2011-10-20 12:59:48+0000 <arbrandes> The decision will always be internal anyway 2011-10-20 12:59:59+0000 <arbrandes> I'm not saying a forum for players shouldn't exist 2011-10-20 13:00:18+0000 <arbrandes> I'm talking about discussion amongst ourselves 2011-10-20 13:00:37+0000 <arbrandes> Discussion that would still be open through mailing list archives 2011-10-20 13:00:41+0000 <arbrandes> (or some other means) 2011-10-20 13:01:14+0000 <arbrandes> Anyway, this is just my opinion on the matter, I don't mean to try to impose it in any way. 2011-10-20 13:02:36+0000 <antoviaque> Question for you 2011-10-20 13:02:52+0000 <antoviaque> Do you think it's a good idea to try to involve players in the decision process? 2011-10-20 13:03:04+0000 <arbrandes> In the form of feedback, of course 2011-10-20 13:03:13+0000 <antoviaque> I mean, *decision* :) 2011-10-20 13:03:28+0000 <antoviaque> Not to say that there isn't room for interpretation of course 2011-10-20 13:03:31+0000 <arbrandes> But letting players actually decide? How would that work, when there are, say, 100 or 1000 players? 2011-10-20 13:03:50+0000 <arbrandes> I mean, sure, that's why this is an open source project and anybody can contribute 2011-10-20 13:04:25+0000 <arbrandes> Again, this is not a philosophical point I'm making, it's a practical one 2011-10-20 13:04:25+0000 <antoviaque> For example, have people participate to threads like the "next steps" one we had those last few days 2011-10-20 13:05:02+0000 <antoviaque> (not on the buddypress updates like now, but on a proper place) 2011-10-20 13:05:05+0000 <arbrandes> That would be entirely impractical in buddypress, from what we've seen, right? We had a 4 person discussion that is almost impossible to follow. 2011-10-20 13:05:17+0000 <antoviaque> yep, agreed 2011-10-20 13:05:26+0000 <arbrandes> Which is my point: 2011-10-20 13:05:38+0000 <arbrandes> Have you ever tried to follow a 50-page thread in a forum? 2011-10-20 13:06:06+0000 <arbrandes> It's almost as hard. 2011-10-20 13:06:34+0000 <arbrandes> Which is the reason most open source projects have mailing lists 2011-10-20 13:06:46+0000 <arbrandes> LKML, anyone? 2011-10-20 13:07:45+0000 <mtyaka> projects often have a separate mailing list just for development 2011-10-20 13:07:53+0000 <mtyaka> couldn't that work for farsides? 2011-10-20 13:08:08+0000 <arbrandes> exactly, mtyaka 2011-10-20 13:08:10+0000 <arbrandes> that's what I mean 2011-10-20 13:08:15+0000 <antoviaque> Actually, from experience mls are good up to a few hundred participants (which already starts to be out of control), past that point forums handle it better 2011-10-20 13:09:01+0000 <blanchard> mtyaka: arbrandes independantly of the media (ml, forum, etc), if we start taking decision without players able to follow/participate/influence, then i think we lose the dynamics of farsides 2011-10-20 13:09:03+0000 <antoviaque> But what do you mean by development? code? or the project as a whole? 2011-10-20 13:10:20+0000 <arbrandes> blanchard, I don't disagree philosophically, but if a practical means isn't established, the aspiration is not attainable 2011-10-20 13:11:24+0000 <arbrandes> antoviaque, I mean code/design/ui discussions 2011-10-20 13:11:29+0000 <arbrandes> again: 2011-10-20 13:11:36+0000 <arbrandes> I don't think there shouldn't be a player forum 2011-10-20 13:11:41+0000 <arbrandes> there *should* 2011-10-20 13:11:55+0000 <arbrandes> a forum where the developers,designers,etc participate too 2011-10-20 13:12:20+0000 <arbrandes> But then again, there's a whole other type of communication, which is the internal one, where we just can't/should'nt miss anything 2011-10-20 13:12:25+0000 <arbrandes> and for that, an ML is ideal 2011-10-20 13:12:41+0000 <antoviaque> raaaaaah 2011-10-20 13:12:50+0000 <antoviaque> In *your* opinion! 2011-10-20 13:12:59+0000 <antoviaque> can't you see that it's not the case for everyone? 2011-10-20 13:13:03+0000 <arbrandes> Of course, everything I say is in my opinion 2011-10-20 13:13:04+0000 <arbrandes> :) 2011-10-20 13:13:42+0000 <arbrandes> And I intend to push the point ;) 2011-10-20 13:13:46+0000 <arbrandes> ML for the win! 2011-10-20 13:13:48+0000 <arbrandes> hehehehe 2011-10-20 13:13:50+0000 <blanchard> arbrandes: the problem of having two separate places is that decisions will be taken where it's the easiest, i.e. the ml. And then players will feel that decisions are taken behind closed doors which is an issue. I think we should be really looking on practical point of view, for one media, not two separate ones. 2011-10-20 13:14:10+0000 <antoviaque> exactly 2011-10-20 13:14:28+0000 <blanchard> Then I'm not sure which media is the best. But I feel that this idea of keeping one only is important 2011-10-20 13:14:43+0000 <arbrandes> Sorry blanchard, but I also disagree with that 2011-10-20 13:14:54+0000 <arbrandes> Even if we use a forum, we'll end up having separate ones 2011-10-20 13:14:58+0000 <arbrandes> (as we have now) 2011-10-20 13:15:51+0000 <blanchard> i see what you mean arbrandes. Of course we'll have different groups according to the subject. But they're all on the same level, and everyone can follow what he's interested in 2011-10-20 13:16:15+0000 <blanchard> there is not a hierarchy of medias if you see what i mean 2011-10-20 13:17:15+0000 <arbrandes> I think you guys are being very enlightened, but not very practical 2011-10-20 13:17:30+0000 <arbrandes> At some point a barrier will have to be established 2011-10-20 13:17:41+0000 <arbrandes> Otherwise discussion will be impossible 2011-10-20 13:17:59+0000 <arbrandes> Not now, I grant you that 2011-10-20 13:18:14+0000 <blanchard> guys i'm really sorry because I need to go back to school now but this is a relevant discussion 2011-10-20 13:18:17+0000 <arbrandes> But when there are 100+ players barging in... the noise will be deafening 2011-10-20 13:18:35+0000 <blanchard> I'll come back and catch up with the backlog if needed 2011-10-20 13:18:45+0000 <blanchard> bbl 2011-10-20 13:18:50+0000 <arbrandes> ok blanchard, I have to go to... we need to continue this later ;) 2011-10-20 13:18:52+0000 <antoviaque> blanchard: see you! 2011-10-20 13:18:53+0000 <arbrandes> *too 2011-10-20 13:18:54+0000 <mtyaka> see you blanchard! 2011-10-20 13:19:18+0000 <tartarugafeliz> bye blanchard :) 2011-10-20 13:19:45+0000 <mtyaka> by to you too, arbrandes! I really admire your rhetorical skills :) 2011-10-20 13:19:49+0000 <antoviaque> arbrandes: We all have been involvedin big communities, I think we are all aware of that - but one of the goals of farsides is to explore what can be done there 2011-10-20 13:19:55+0000 <mtyaka> s/by/bye 2011-10-20 13:20:00+0000 <arbrandes> mtyaka, hahaha, thanks, I'm just very stubborn ;P 2011-10-20 13:22:15+0000 <arbrandes> Anyway, in the end I'm fine with anything that's an improvement of the current buddypress groups. A mailing list would be ideal, but I'm not going to whine if that's not what the majority (and the majority of founders, especially) wants. 2011-10-20 13:23:32+0000 <arbrandes> bbl 2011-10-20 13:23:47+0000 <mtyaka> thinking about it, the philosophical idea of openness behind farsides is something i want to see explored to the max.... so for this reason i'll be happy to put up with a somewhat less efficient discussion meda 2011-10-20 13:24:00+0000 <mtyaka> bye arbrandes! 2011-10-20 13:26:16+0000 <antoviaque> yep, actually it makes me realize that we haven't discussed enough some of the core philosophical ideas - would be good to have this one, outside of a ml/forum troll :) 2011-10-20 13:27:18+0000 <mtyaka> oh yes, i'd love that 2011-10-20 13:27:36+0000 <antoviaque> ok, I'll start something on the buddypress then :D 2011-10-20 13:28:10+0000 <tartarugafeliz> but all this info in on the website... 2011-10-20 13:28:18+0000 <tartarugafeliz> *is 2011-10-20 13:28:18+0000 <mtyaka> ok, i'll read it if i get the notification :P 2011-10-20 13:28:23+0000 <antoviaque> (Actually probably after activating the forums per se, would be a good test too) 2011-10-20 13:28:25+0000 <antoviaque> hehehe 2011-10-20 13:28:55+0000 <antoviaque> tartarugafeliz: true, a lot of it has been written, especially on the wiki, but I think it's buried and not everyone read it 2011-10-20 13:29:05+0000 <tartarugafeliz> what? 2011-10-20 13:29:27+0000 <antoviaque> will be a good occasion to dig up a bit in the philosophical section, which is full of spider webs ;p 2011-10-20 13:30:15+0000 <tartarugafeliz> its on our website antoviaque 2011-10-20 13:30:19+0000 <tartarugafeliz> About us 2011-10-20 13:30:20+0000 <tartarugafeliz> its all there 2011-10-20 13:30:33+0000 <tartarugafeliz> and its not about us the 3 founders 2011-10-20 13:30:55+0000 <tartarugafeliz> its about us - people who wants to work with farsides 2011-10-20 13:31:16+0000 <antoviaque> yep, but I was reading the values&ambitions sections, I can see how a quick read could have missed some of the more practical elements we were discussing today 2011-10-20 13:31:40+0000 <tartarugafeliz> a quick read is not very indicated when you're going to work with someone :P 2011-10-20 13:32:38+0000 <mtyaka> tartarugafeliz: true, there's a lot about it on the website, but it would be good to think how to put the philosophical ideas into practice - considering we have actual players now :) 2011-10-20 13:32:49+0000 <tartarugafeliz> its true. 2011-10-20 13:32:50+0000 <mtyaka> because this is something new, at least to me 2011-10-20 13:35:49+0000 <antoviaque> mtyaka: yep, completely understood - because I've been seeing things like this for some time, I know I can forget that it's not obvious 2011-10-20 13:36:15+0000 <antoviaque> and actually it's good to refresh it from time to time with new point of views 2011-10-20 13:37:28+0000 * antoviaque remembers we forgot to end the meeting again btw :p 2011-10-20 13:37:36+0000 <antoviaque> eve: end dailymeeting 2011-10-20 13:37:37+0000 <eve> Meeting Ended 2011-10-20 13:37:37+0000 <eve> Minutes available at http://paste.pocoo.org/show/495485 2011-10-20 14:27:47+0000 <tartarugafeliz> [email protected]: good players make the game better :) 2011-10-20 14:27:47+0000 <tartarugafeliz> [email protected]: Yay 2011-10-20 15:16:30+0000 * dachary back 2011-10-20 15:16:52+0000 <dachary> working http://tickets.farsides.com/issues/536 2011-10-20 16:23:47+0000 <tartarugafeliz> hey dachary!:D 2011-10-20 16:23:57+0000 <antoviaque> dachary: kewl!!! 2011-10-20 16:24:26+0000 <antoviaque> btw, how is it going your return to card stories? you find your marks? :) 2011-10-20 16:27:23+0000 <dachary> yes, it's enjoyable :-) 2011-10-20 16:39:57+0000 <tartarugafeliz> :) 2011-10-20 16:57:58+0000 <dachary> antoviaque: tartarugafeliz do you have a suggestion on how to handle the fact that a player did not make it to the vote phase ? At present it is not shown at all. Should (s)he be shown ? If yes, how to show that (s)he did not vote ? 2011-10-20 17:03:00+0000 <dachary> http://tickets.farsides.com/issues/536#note-5 2011-10-20 17:04:17+0000 * dachary suspects that the answer will be that the player should not be removed and is thinking about how to implement this. 2011-10-20 17:10:40+0000 <antoviaque> Good question, let me see 2011-10-20 17:20:59+0000 MCMic (MCMic) is now online 2011-10-20 17:26:51+0000 <antoviaque> fyi http://tickets.farsides.com/issues/536#note-6 2011-10-20 17:27:13+0000 <antoviaque> I think I have a way, but have a look to see what you think 2011-10-20 17:29:01+0000 <tartarugafeliz> I love this solution 2011-10-20 17:29:17+0000 <tartarugafeliz> and good point dachary, I hadn't thgouth about that either 2011-10-20 18:49:29+0000 dachary (dachary) is now online 2011-10-20 18:50:12+0000 <antoviaque> dachary: re : ) 2011-10-20 18:50:19+0000 <dachary> :-) 2011-10-20 18:50:30+0000 <antoviaque> (07:10:41 PM) antoviaque: Good question, let me see 2011-10-20 18:50:30+0000 <antoviaque> (07:26:51 PM) antoviaque: fyi http://tickets.farsides.com/issues/536#note-6 2011-10-20 18:50:30+0000 <antoviaque> (07:27:13 PM) antoviaque: I think I have a way, but have a look to see what you think 2011-10-20 18:56:02+0000 * dachary reading 2011-10-20 19:24:35+0000 <tartarugafeliz> [email protected]: this is fun. i wish we had more people playing. it would make it harder with more cards 2011-10-20 19:25:02+0000 <antoviaque> hehehe, real true : ) 2011-10-20 19:25:16+0000 <antoviaque> I finish answering a post and I can have a game : ) 2011-10-20 19:25:52+0000 <tartarugafeliz> [email protected]: yeah. i stumbled on it this morning and hopefully i can get more people to try it :) 2011-10-20 19:55:45+0000 <antoviaque> heheheh 2011-10-20 19:56:04+0000 <antoviaque> dachary: what do you think? I know it's not the easiest solution technically :) 2011-10-20 19:57:47+0000 <dachary> antoviaque: it makes sense. 2011-10-20 20:14:05+0000 <antoviaque> ok : ) 2011-10-20 20:19:46+0000 <antoviaque> dachary: did you get a chance to look at the next steps for card stories? I'm curious to know what you think, you're usually good at pointing out obvious flaws that nobody had seen :) 2011-10-20 20:21:54+0000 <dachary> No I didn't. 2011-10-20 20:22:56+0000 <antoviaque> Ok, I won't pester you with this - there is time while we work on the most obvious issues anyway 2011-10-20 20:23:29+0000 <dachary> We can talk about it in 10 minutes if you like. 2011-10-20 20:23:44+0000 <antoviaque> Would love it : ) 2011-10-20 20:27:19+0000 <dachary> I'm done with the server side part http://cardstori.es/trac/changeset/fe7b1dad6d1e1dcf137f1cc96ec5cf75557ac1eb/ 2011-10-20 20:48:54+0000 <dachary> I'm having troubles running the JS tests, are there specific instructions on how to do it ? 2011-10-20 20:49:04+0000 <dachary> file:///home/loic/software/cardstories/cardstories/static/test/index.html 2011-10-20 20:49:05+0000 <dachary> runs 2011-10-20 20:49:10+0000 <dachary> but 2011-10-20 20:49:31+0000 <dachary> only after replacing "/static/ with "../ 2011-10-20 20:49:32+0000 <dachary> and then I get 2011-10-20 20:49:33+0000 <dachary> 836 tests of 1385 passed, 549 failed. 2011-10-20 20:50:17+0000 <dachary> plus I get a too much recursion error 2011-10-20 20:50:37+0000 <dachary> and when I run 2011-10-20 20:50:42+0000 <dachary> make -f maintain.mk check 2011-10-20 20:51:01+0000 <dachary> i get errors on the solo plugin, probably because it's not used anymore 2011-10-20 20:52:29+0000 * dachary checking http://wiki.farsides.com/w/Card_Stories_-_Developer_Documentation 2011-10-20 20:53:27+0000 <dachary> nope 2011-10-20 20:53:34+0000 * dachary checking the readme 2011-10-20 20:56:07+0000 <dachary> nope 2011-10-20 20:56:23+0000 <dachary> I'll ask mtyaka || arbrandes tomorrow when I get a chance 2011-10-20 20:57:02+0000 <dachary> night all 2011-10-20 21:56:44+0000 MCMic (MCMic) is now online 2011-10-20 22:11:32+0000 <tartarugafeliz> blanchard: apparently we got 2 more players today! :D 2011-10-20 22:12:44+0000 <blanchard> tartarugafeliz: you're an amazing entertainer 2011-10-20 22:13:01+0000 <tartarugafeliz> hahaahah I'm practicing the whooole day for a week! 2011-10-20 22:13:18+0000 <antoviaque> blanchard: agreed, she's a better community manager than me at the end :) 2011-10-20 22:13:31+0000 <tartarugafeliz> ahhh exagerated guy 2011-10-20 22:13:41+0000 <blanchard> everytime i come there, you're around with nobody, ceane and company :) 2011-10-20 22:13:45+0000 <tartarugafeliz> I just like to play and to communicate with them 2011-10-20 22:13:51+0000 <antoviaque> no no - I would hire you without hesitating for a CM job now :p 2011-10-20 22:13:59+0000 <tartarugafeliz> hahaahahah 2011-10-20 22:14:10+0000 <tartarugafeliz> new skills! :) 2011-10-20 22:14:22+0000 <antoviaque> yep, the best thing! :) 2011-10-20 22:14:24+0000 <tartarugafeliz> they get so happy to play and to comment the stories, its always a good moment 2011-10-20 22:14:33+0000 <tartarugafeliz> and to give ideas 2011-10-20 22:14:42+0000 <tartarugafeliz> and complain that they already memorized the cards and they want new ones 2011-10-20 22:15:13+0000 <antoviaque> blanchard: talking about new skills, thanks for renewing the safari account :) 2011-10-20 22:15:21+0000 <blanchard> antoviaque: yw 2011-10-20 22:16:21+0000 <blanchard> I'm just back and I see some activity on the forum :) While tartarugafeliz is entertaining players, antoviaque and arbrandes are into philosophy :) 2011-10-20 22:16:43+0000 <antoviaque> tartarugafeliz: yesss, new cards! 2011-10-20 22:16:45+0000 <tartarugafeliz> yes, I wrote an entire article about it already :) 2011-10-20 22:16:57+0000 <antoviaque> ahahahaha 2011-10-20 22:17:10+0000 <antoviaque> *smokes a cigar and takes a penetrated look* 2011-10-20 22:17:12+0000 <blanchard> I love the chat excerpts that you publish tartarugafeliz :) 2011-10-20 22:17:12+0000 <antoviaque> :p 2011-10-20 22:17:19+0000 <blanchard> hehe antoviaque 2011-10-20 22:17:24+0000 <antoviaque> yep, very cool, agreed 2011-10-20 22:17:41+0000 <tartarugafeliz> cool that you like blanchard there are very very good ones, and I thought it would be interesting for the investors to see too 2011-10-20 22:18:02+0000 <antoviaque> yep, lots of good quotes to pass on alrready :D 2011-10-20 22:18:18+0000 <blanchard> Yes I'm sure it will be very useful for various topics (investors included) 2011-10-20 22:20:45+0000 <tartarugafeliz> well, I need to stop looking at a screen for today⦠I only see cards in front of me ahahha⦠see you guys! 2011-10-20 22:21:56+0000 <dachary> http://giffconstable.com/wp-content/uploads/freemium-model-v1-2.xls 2011-10-20 22:23:01+0000 <dachary> antoviaque: the conversion from player to paying customer depends on how long the user has been on the site. It starts at 0.5% and increases to 1% after a month etc. 2011-10-20 22:23:15+0000 <dachary> in the Assumption tab 2011-10-20 22:23:26+0000 <blanchard> dachary: thx ! Osana osana, a new template so I can have fun forecasting our future million players 2011-10-20 22:24:08+0000 <dachary> :-) 2011-10-20 22:24:29+0000 <blanchard> dachary: do they say somewhere on what service they base their assumption ? (I couldn't see any benchmark) 2011-10-20 22:24:39+0000 <antoviaque> dachary: ah, if you look at evolution through time it's different yep - but overall it averages out to between 5-10% of player who join, over their lifetime, no? 2011-10-20 22:25:02+0000 <dachary> it does not say how much you should expect in terms advertisement => registered user converstion though ;-) I thought it did. 2011-10-20 22:25:04+0000 * antoviaque looking at the plan 2011-10-20 22:25:39+0000 <antoviaque> blanchard: you remember what we put in the BP on conversion from ads? 2011-10-20 22:26:06+0000 <dachary> antoviaque: I can't think in terms of percentage over a period, it confuses me. 2011-10-20 22:27:02+0000 <blanchard> antoviaque: you mean conversion from visitors to registered ? 2011-10-20 22:27:09+0000 <dachary> The business plan made a lot more sense to me when I started to think in terms of monthly percentages evolving over time. 2011-10-20 22:27:41+0000 <antoviaque> blanchard: yep 2011-10-20 22:27:57+0000 <blanchard> antoviaque: we assumed 6% steady 2011-10-20 22:27:59+0000 <dachary> For ads it is a percentage and there is no monthly evolution. For users going to become paying users it's completly different. 2011-10-20 22:28:34+0000 <dachary> blanchard: why 6% ? 2011-10-20 22:28:57+0000 <antoviaque> I remembered correctly then, I was thinking 5-10% 2011-10-20 22:29:13+0000 <dachary> where does this number come from ? 2011-10-20 22:29:33+0000 <blanchard> dachary: we did an imaginary benchmark I would say 2011-10-20 22:29:48+0000 <dachary> how do you mean ? 2011-10-20 22:29:59+0000 <blanchard> nothing very serious. Something that felt reasonable from what we read here and there. 2011-10-20 22:30:09+0000 <blanchard> It seems a strange assumption to you ? 2011-10-20 22:33:09+0000 <dachary> I was think more 2-3% from the top of my head but I have no hard evidence. It has a great impact on the business plan and it seems worth researching to get hard facts, if possible. 2011-10-20 22:33:18+0000 <dachary> s/think/thinking/ 2011-10-20 22:33:57+0000 <blanchard> True dachary. Though some other assumptions have an even stronger impact and are hard to predict. Virality for instance. 2011-10-20 22:34:11+0000 <blanchard> The model is extremely sensible to virality 2011-10-20 22:41:35+0000 <dachary> From what I know virality can be ignored completely, for the purpose of writing the business plan. Acquiring a user costs $C. IIRC from 2010 acquiring a player cost between 10ct and 30ct. If you are "viral" you lean toward 10ct per user. The virality can change that much, but it can't change more. 2011-10-20 22:42:52+0000 <dachary> I think virality is one of the desirable side effects of good marketing / community management and you try to optimize it. But it should not show in the business plan. 2011-10-20 22:43:34+0000 <dachary> When I wrote business plans for poker, the investors were dreaming about zynga. 2011-10-20 22:44:36+0000 <dachary> Zynga has never been magically viral, they massively spammed facebook users for free before they forbid it. 2011-10-20 22:46:46+0000 <antoviaque> you mean before facebook figured out how to make them pay for it, with real ads & cut of transactions : ) 2011-10-20 22:46:58+0000 <dachary> antoviaque: exactly :-) 2011-10-20 22:47:29+0000 <dachary> Unless you find another loophole somewhere, you're out of luck with magic virality. 2011-10-20 22:47:49+0000 <antoviaque> but yep, it's true, virality is a kind of attempt at measuring success in a way - if it's good people will talk about it. You can try to optimise cost, but this part is much harder 2011-10-20 22:48:12+0000 <dachary> yes 2011-10-20 22:48:22+0000 <blanchard> interesting point about removing virality as a direct variable and using it to lower acquisition cost dachary i'll think about this. I always felt that virality has a too strong impact in what we forecast, didn't know to take this into account. I'll try that. 2011-10-20 22:48:36+0000 <dachary> you do the best you can so that it's easy and encourage for other people to invite their friends 2011-10-20 22:50:06+0000 <antoviaque> blanchard: now that we're starting to have actual numbers from the game, we could try to see what it gives with what we have btw 2011-10-20 22:50:10+0000 <dachary> blanchard: if you checkout the http://giffconstable.com/2009/11/freemium-business-model-template/ you won't see virality anywhere 2011-10-20 22:50:41+0000 <dachary> can you remind me where the business plan is ? 2011-10-20 22:51:00+0000 <dachary> I mean the projections 2011-10-20 22:51:51+0000 <dachary> http://git.farsides.com/?a=tree&p=share&h=370db17aec8b922b70357f48dd31cea8ed054f79&hb=2c3e4fb890f1cbea74347c920e4080429993cefe&f=business/cash%20follow%20up%20%26%20forecast but it's not that I think 2011-10-20 22:52:15+0000 <blanchard> dachary: the ods in http://git.farsides.com/?a=tree&p=share&h=876bb43ce838ba755a85589e49cd70aff437c626&hb=2c3e4fb890f1cbea74347c920e4080429993cefe&f=business/fund%20raising%20%26%20subsidy/fund%20raising%20-%20second%20round 2011-10-20 22:52:42+0000 <blanchard> antoviaque: yes it would be interesting to look at real figures definitely 2011-10-20 22:52:53+0000 <blanchard> je dors debout, je vous dis bonsoir 2011-10-20 22:52:56+0000 <dachary> blanchard: thanks 2011-10-20 22:53:07+0000 <blanchard> I'll be glad to discuss that again tomorrow or so 2011-10-20 22:53:32+0000 <antoviaque> blanchard: have a good night! :) 2011-10-20 22:54:56+0000 <dachary> http://git.farsides.com/?a=blob&p=share&h=1e41939e4a7f2cfde64f730e1ae319f845716138&n=Financials%20sept%2028.ods ? 2011-10-20 22:56:30+0000 <dachary> blanchard: good nuit :-) 2011-10-20 23:21:08+0000 <dachary> In your projections you assumed to spend 50ke in 12 month to acquire 500k registered users (not taking churn into account) which is 10ct per user. If you assume this to be the cost of acquiring a user and introduce it as a variable, I think you can get rid of the virality. 2011-10-20 23:22:39+0000 <dachary> I'd say 10ct is assuming good virality and if you don't have much incentive / means to attract other players while participating in cardstories you can change this to 30ct. 2011-10-20 23:25:46+0000 <dachary> I think you're being a little pessimistic on the churn. loosing 80% on the first month is too much but it's only a gut feeling. 2011-10-20 23:31:13+0000 <dachary> conversively I think you're a little too optimistic on the paying user conversion rate, it is probably more linear and takes longer for most 2011-10-20 23:35:36+0000 <dachary> you've done your homework blanchard, congratulations ;-) 2011-10-20 23:35:46+0000 * dachary heading to bed
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