Earl,
Well said. These were the issues I touched upon, but didn't get into as
much detail as yourself.
It strikes me the matter of French lute music in later Germanic lands was
much like the relationship between American blues and the British Invasion
bands in the 1960's. All of the British bands were really into American blues.
Some of them approached the blues quite faithfully, attempting to re-create
the sound themselves and using forms such as the classic 12-bar blues. Others
merely incorporated the sound into their own style. This is clearly the same
sort of situation that existed with players and performers in late baroque
Germany. Surely none of them would have given a hoot about whether he had the
"right" instrument for the music.
Chris
--- On Sat, 10/31/09, Earl Christy <galantla...@gmail.com> wrote:
> From: Earl Christy <galantla...@gmail.com>
> Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Difference 13c.-11c. vs. 10c.-6c.?
> To: "Mathias Rösel" <mathias.roe...@t-online.de>
> Cc: baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
> Date: Saturday, October 31, 2009, 8:49 AM
> Dear Lute list,
> I think several aspets are getting overlooked in this
> discussion.
> There are alot of good points on both sides.
> Historically, though, I don't think we should divide music
> history
> into 11 course and 13 course eras. They are actually
> concurrent and
> not consecutive. If we look at the surving mss, I think it
> becomes
> appearent that the 11 course instrument remained incredibly
> popular
> along side the 13 course instrument. And french music ( by
> mouton or
> gaultier or gallot ) still apears well into the 18th
> century. In
> Mus.ms.40633, formerly in berlin but now in Krakow, we find
> not only
> music by Baron and Weichenburger, but also pieces by
> Gaultier and
> Mouton. Additions at the end of the ms give the date 1753,
> though the
> main body of the ms may be older. Many players still played
> 11 course
> instruments, while others adopted the 13 course. And
> stylistically,
> the 18th century is not a puzzels of equal pieces, but more
> like a
> soup. If you think that while falckenhagen is publishing
> his opus 1
> sonatas, which are incredibly forward looking galant works
> which take
> full advantage of the 13 course, weichenberger and
> lauffensteiner are
> writting music which looks back nostalgically at the
> earlier french
> style.
> I think there were, much like today, lutenists who
> could be very much
> drawn to the newer galant style and the possiblities of the
> 13 course,
> while an equal number might have been content to remain
> within the
> quasi french style and the opportunities offorded by the 11
> course.
> They are not mutually exclusive groups in a historical time
> line.
> Another aspect of this dscussion is with the construction.
> Eleven
> course instruments at the time of gaultier and dufault were
> very much
> close cousins of the renaissance instruments. the barring
> was not
> radically different. Later eleven courses, however, like
> those of the
> early 18th century had developed a much different style of
> barring. It
> affects the sound. I think and earlier 11 course would
> sound much more
> intimate while the later instruments projected more. This
> is also
> something to consider.
> So I think a basic question must be answered: when playing
> french
> eleven course music, do you want to arrive as close to the
> intentions
> of the composer as possible, or do you want to play the
> music in a
> style which is historically accurate. If the answer is the
> former,
> then a 13 course lute, or even a latter model eleven
> course, are out
> of the question. However, seeing as how french pieces
> continued to be
> copied and distributed well into the 18th century, if you
> are more
> inclined to the latter then I see no justification to
> exclude an 13
> course instrument. It will sound very different, but not
> incorrect. I
> think it is a simliar question to whether one can play JS
> Bach on a
> piano. Did Bach compose for the piano? We don't really
> know. Did
> Mozart, Beethoven or Kozeluch play Bach on a piano.
> Probably. So does
> the latter justify piano performance? It depends on the
> ideals of each
> individual player.
> E
> On Fri, Oct 30, 2009 at 5:19 PM, "Mathias Rösel"
> <mathias.roe...@t-online.de>
> wrote:
> > Chris,
> >
> > thank you for touching on these interesting topics.
> >
> >> Bernd mentioned Weiss's take on "L'amant
> malheureux" by Gallot appearing in the London Ms.
> >
> > What's interesting is that there's more than this
> adaptation by Weiss
> > (London, BL Add. 30387 fol. 66v). There is another in
> Paris, BN Res.
> > Vmc. ms. 61 (Prunieres), fol. 25v (also available in
> The Lute Companion,
> > p. 318, # 233).
> >
> > The latter ms. bears a date (Venetijs 7 7br 1712).
> "L'Amant malheureux"
> > on fol. 25v is in Weiss' own hand according to Monique
> Rollin, Oeuvres
> > des Gallot, 1987, p. LII, rem. 14. What's so special
> about this
> > adaptation is that it is transposed one whole step
> down to G minor! Both
> > this and the adaptation in the London ms. have in
> common (IMHO) that
> > Weiss tries to make sense of the melodic fragments.
> >
> > Compared to Barbe p. 36 or Besançon I 60 / II 120,
> where the allemande
> > is notated in the typical fashion of broken melody,
> Weiss' approach is
> > really different, viz. cantabile.
> >
> >> There's also an example like the Lord Danby book,
> compiled in Hamburg by an Englishman.
> >
> > Tim Crawford dates the ms. 1709-11. I'd love to get
> hold of this,
> > indeed. On Nov 19 2007, Steve Gottlieb informed this
> list, that the
> > library of Sibley's was "unable to digitize the
> manuscript since the
> > scanning process would be to invasive for this fragile
> manuscript." He
> > announced he'd try to make pdf files.
> >
> >> This book contains solo lute arrangements of
> Handel overtures and a piece by Corelli as well Dufaut and
> settings of Lully.
> >
> > Lully, Corelli and Handel do not stand for French
> tradition. According
> > to Crawford
> > (http://www.doc.gold.ac.uk/~mas01tc/web/ttc/Danby_music.html),
> "there
> > are a few pieces in the French style of the period,
> and three are by the
> > Parisian court musician, Robert de Visée." De Visee
> does not represent
> > French broken style either. In fact, there is one
> single piece by
> > Dufault (# 46, pp. 81-2, Tombeau du Roy d’Orange) in
> this collection of
> > 93 pieces.
> >
> >> It also contains several pieces by Logy who wrote
> in a very French style
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