Dear Martyn, Bill, Andreas and others
My initial enquiry to the list was about what the (nominal) pitches of
v Radolt's lutes were in relation to the string parts in his concerti
ie what pitches they needed to be in order for all three lutes and the
strings to be playing in the same key as the staff notation of the
strings! I do not have a copy of the facsimile myself. Andreas Schlegel
replied that the three lutes needed to be tuned so that they
respectively had chanterelles at f1, e flat1 and c1, and pointed out
that Vienna pitch was A467. Martyn also replied and referred me to his
work on the pitching of von Radolt's 3 lutes in relation to kammer-,
chor- and cornet- ton. I'm unable to reconcile Andreas and Martyn's
data, unless I've horribly misunderstood either or both of their
communications. This started as what I saw as a simple request for
information from a score and has now become very complicated.
In any case, my lute is a copy of the Vienna C34 Frei - it has lost 4mm
of string length so is 67cm for a man with small hands. I'm currently
trying it out at A440 with highish tension (or as I would like to
describe it tuned in E minor at A392!).
Best wishes
__________________________________________________________________
From: Martyn Hodgson [hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk]
Sent: 24 September 2011 14:50
To: Christopher Pearcy
Subject: Further to: PS to Fw: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: v Radolt's lutes
again
Dear Chris,
A few further thoughts just to you:
One of the reasons we decided to focus on a Dm lute string length of
around 72cm in our
original pape was that the larger instruments (eg around 76cm) seemed
to have mostly
come in at a later date than Von Radolt's work. In short, we looked at
18th century conversions of earlier lutes (as the French favoured and
still, I believe, an important influence on the solo
lute c 1700 in the German speaking world) and sizes of extant lutes
made around this time
(eg by Tielke, Weigert. JC Hofmann and the like) and contemporary
descriptions of size
(eg the Talbot Ms).
However, I do think the Prague maker Edlinger has something to tell us
and his slightly
larger lutes (compared to most contemporary makers) may conceivably
have been what
Radolt had in mind when referring to a proper large common lute. In
this case the sizes of
his lutes would be a semitone's worth larger ie at 76cm, 64 cm (similar
to the extant Berr)
and 57cm (similar to the descanting lutes in the old tuning of earlier
periods). I'm quite
happy to accept such a semitone variation.
However, such a slight difference still seems a way off your suggestion
of c' lute @A467.
What's the string length of your Frei model?
Finally, re the Hubert Hoffmann recording of some Radolt's works: I
think it often enjoyable as well as interesting and certainly presents
some of the instrumental possibilities Radolt allows.
And AA are certainly to be thanked for making the work available.
However in the recording
this group made of works by Kohaut I was much bothered by the use of a
double bass
throughout (allbeit in the Vienesse tuning!). Similar, if less obvious,
objections are evident in
the Radolt record: eg the sizes of lutes used as shown in the
photograph in the booklet.
regards
MH
--- On Sat, 24/9/11, Martyn Hodgson <hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
From: Martyn Hodgson <hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: PS to Fw: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: v Radolt's lutes again
To: "baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu" <baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>,
"lute.cor...@sunrise.ch" <lute.cor...@sunrise.ch>, "Christopher
Pearcy" <c.pear...@uni.brighton.ac.uk>
Date: Saturday, 24 September, 2011, 9:29
For f'' read f' .................
MH
--- On Sat, 24/9/11, Martyn Hodgson <hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
From: Martyn Hodgson <hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: v Radolt's lutes again
To: "baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu" <baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>,
"lute.cor...@sunrise.ch" <lute.cor...@sunrise.ch>, "Christopher
Pearcy" <c.pear...@uni.brighton.ac.uk>
Date: Saturday, 24 September, 2011, 9:14
Dear Chris,
Thank you for this.
Our paper suggested a 'reicht grosse ordinari Lautten' (proper large
common lute) in the nominal Dm tuning at 72cm - which, based on the
breaking stress of gut, indicates a pitch of the first course (at
nominal f'') a whole tone below A440 ie at A392: - I'm not sure how
you
deduce from this that we suggest that such a sized lute would have
its
first course at c' at A467 (this would give a first course nominal
pitch at A392 of only d#' not f'' as we suggest).
Regarding your Frei instrument the usual advice might be best: tune
it
so that the first course is as close to breaking as practical (ie
without breaking too frequently).
MH
.--- On Fri, 23/9/11, Christopher Pearcy
<[1]c.pear...@uni.brighton.ac.uk>
wrote:
From: Christopher Pearcy <[2]c.pear...@uni.brighton.ac.uk>
Subject: RE: [BAROQUE-LUTE] v Radolt's lutes again
To: "Martyn Hodgson" <[3]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>,
"[4]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu"
<[5]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>,
"[6]lute.cor...@sunrise.ch" <[7]lute.cor...@sunrise.ch>
Date: Friday, 23 September, 2011, 19:04
Thank you Martyn and Andreas
However this leaves me even more puzzled. If v Radolt's reicht
grosse
ordinari lautten is a pretty standard German lute of around 72cm and
its chanterelle is tuned at c1 at A467 it would be working well
below
its working tension (breaking tension minus 2 or 3 semitones). Might
the mittere lautten be the the 'standard' lute and the grosse
ordinari
lautten be ordinari because it's an 11c lute and not a theorbo
(another
sort of grosse lautten) and grosse because it's above 'standard'
size
(like some of the Edlinger lutes)? This of course questions what
chor,
cornet and kammer - ton were in 1701 in Vienna - unless the strings
played at a very high pitch, but that would probably cause problems
in
terms of the working tension of the violins. What solution does
Hubert
Hoffmann offer?
My original question was to help me decide on a pitch for my small
Frei
but I think this may be muddying the waters. Please feel free to
ignore
this line of puzzling if you find it irritating.
Best wishes
Chris
__________________________________________________________________
From: Martyn Hodgson [[8]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk]
Sent: 23 September 2011 08:48
To: [9]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; Christopher Pearcy
Subject: Re: [BAROQUE-LUTE] v Radolt's lutes again
See the paper by Bill Samson and myself (FoMRHI Comm 737 - available
from the FoMRHI archives) about Von Radolt's instructions.
Regarding the sizes of the lutes, the instructions suggest various
sizes of 11 course lutes lute ranging from approx 54cm string length
(Radolt's very small lute) through a middle sized lute around 61 cm
to
his proper common lute at 72cm.
The likely pitch (discussed in the paper) is determind by the
instrument's string length and tensile strength of gut.
MH
--- On Fri, 23/9/11, Christopher Pearcy
<[10]c.pear...@uni.brighton.ac.uk>
wrote:
From: Christopher Pearcy <[11]c.pear...@uni.brighton.ac.uk>
Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] v Radolt's lutes again
To: "[12]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu"
<[13]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Date: Friday, 23 September, 2011, 8:29
Dear all
If anyone has a copy of the v. Radolt lute concerti, could you
tell
me
what are the (nominal) pitches of his 3 lutes in relation to the
string
parts. I'm looking at alternative pitching for my small Frei -
and
this
may give me additional data to add to breaking index and pitch
standards.
Thanks in anticipation.
Chris
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