Dear Anthony,
Thank you for this. In essence all I'm suggesting is that we should
look at the evidence of what size and sort (eg barring) of instrument
was used for a particular repertoire and then see what sounds result,
rather than starting from the sort of sound we personally like and then
choosing the instrument which makes this sound. Clearly the first has
the possibility of getting somewhere near what the original composers
might have expected and their audiences heard; but the second merely
reflects our own prejudices/pre-delictions/wishful-thinking of the sort
of sound we, as individuals, would like to hear. The matter is
particularly pointed if the specification of the instrument we come up
with for performing a particular repertoire was unknown to players at
the time. This doesn't just apply to Anthony Bailes of course but to
any player with pretensions to perform works in a manner reasonably
close to what the original composer might have expected.
Regarding putting 'sustain' as the feature most to be sought in this
repertoire is, of course, simply a prejudice (prejudgement) - it might
be any feature (eg softness, loudness, ability to articulate, lack of
sustain etc....). As said, we ought to try and secure an instrument as
close as possible to what the actual historic evidence indicates and
base our experiments on this. I also suggest, if we wish to be
rigorous about this search, we should eschew other anachronistic
techniques - such as plucking away from the bridge and up to the rose
which has at least as big an influence on the tone produced as almost
any other factor. Your links (email 16 March) to pictures comparing
Mouton and a modern 11 course player is particular telling: not only in
the right hand position and its plucking posture but also how the
instrument is held - low down cradled in the lap, not high up resting
on the right thigh as Mouton (and other contemporary depictions).
Finally, I'm all for experiment if it is presented as such: it's when
this might be seem to be an accurate reflection of what the Old Ones
actually did that I worry.
regards
Martyn
--- On Tue, 20/3/12, Anthony Hind <agno3ph...@yahoo.com> wrote:
From: Anthony Hind <agno3ph...@yahoo.com>
Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Pre-judgement (or wishful thinking) was
Re: Ne Anthony Bailes CD
To: "Martyn Hodgson" <hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
Cc: "baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu" <baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Date: Tuesday, 20 March, 2012, 12:52
Dear Martyn
I must appologize for not having seen your message; I actually
wrote a subpart to my mail to Ed (on sustain, clarity and with modern
hard thin tables) which was a note to you, and saying something not
completely unlike what you say here; but then I removed it, as it was
very tentative, a little confused, and not really addressed to Ed
(although the subject still relates to sustain in French baroque lute
music). I then had to respond to another mail, and I forgot to make the
note to you. I will just add it here, almost as I initially wrote it:
I should perhaps add (in Ed's message) a few words as second thoughts,
here , more as questions to Martyn, relating to Anthony Baile's
experimenting with sustain for French Baroque lute music. I don't think
it has always been considered that the French lutenists research for
old Bologna lutes was necessarilly a search for lutes having BOTH
sustain and clarity; I remember several lute makers advising me that
the best quality for a French lute would be speed and clarity (I
believe they were simply considering sound differences between rounder
multi-ribbed Paduan shape and the Bologna almond shape on modern
lutes, rather than the age question). The idea possibly being that the
speed and clarity of the shallower Bologna shape might help counteract
the increased sympathetic resonances due to the new tunings (thus
perhaps reducing overhang, a "bad" form of sustain).
However, an alternative and opposing hypothesis (possibly adopted by
AB) might be that the greater age of the Bologna lutes, as well as the
reduction in the ammount of paper and glue (Burwell) giving less
impedance, would all combine to better allow the French musicians to
profit from the sympathetic resonances due to their tunings increasing
sustain. (I am not forgetting that a number of French lutenists
(Pinel?) may have actually preferred the rounder sound of Paduan lutes)
%
Better sustain with clarity, I believe would also have been achieved if
they were using low impedance high tension stringing, which
theoreticians of this school also suppose French musicians had done
(supposition disputed by tenants of the low tension theory).
Further more, Jacob Heringman told me that, in his opinion, long string
lengths also permit greater expressivity (which perhaps is both related
to depth of sound, but also sustain).
%
If all three factors lead to more sustain, we can notice that in his
choice of stringing and lute, AB has gone for maximum possible sustain
with clarity: an old lute, with loaded basses, and a very long string
length.
(I may be quite wrong with all the preceding, I am not a lute maker,
nor a musicologist, so please consider this as a formulated question).
%
However, along with Martyn (if the preceding is correct), we might ask
ourselves, why, if sustain were the only quality the French musicians
were seeking, did they not seek out lutes suitable for longer
extensions. Extant French lutes do seem to be around 68cm (+/-2cm). In
other words, AB's combination of old lute, low impedance stringing, and
long string length could perhaps be too much of a good thing.
This just a further thought which takes nothing away from the pleasure
AB is both giving himself and, us, his listeners, while playing this
lute.
%
Just another thought, however, a modern 68cm Bologna lute may not have
the sustain of a vintage Bologna lute; unless as Dan Larson has done, a
very hard Sitka or Adirondack spruce top has been used, which although
perhaps not a historical tone wood, might be closer to the hardness of
those vintage bologna tables (or possibly the top has been given a
special Borax or oxidyzed linseed treatment). Stephen Gottlieb, did
tell me that it is no longer possible to cut a table as thinly as on
some historic lutes, as the spruce is no longer hard enough. Thus if
AB's lute may perhaps have a little too much sustain than historic,
perhaps most modern Bologna lutes do not have enough.
%
That was the end of my message, which I feel is not completely
different from some of the ideas in yours.
I did not mention the pitch issue. I rather suppose that if the French
lutenists had 68cm lutes, they may have used a frequency closer to
415Hz. Personally, I am using 392Hz on a 70cm Warwick Frei; however, I
don't know what evidence we might have for the preferred pitch, except
for the preferred lute sizes.
There is also the barring question you mention, which is definitely
relevant, but if I understand correctly, Jakob's Rauwolf has fan
barring, should we also consider that not appropriate for French music?
There is the issue of stringing, and how acceptable different modern
strings (gut synthetics, wire-wounds) might be from a historic point of
view, but this is an issue often spoken of here, and possibly can be
treated separately from the historic lute question.
%
Please excuse the rather confused message, but I did not want to take
even longer by spending more time on it.
Regards
Anthony
________________________________
De : Martyn Hodgson <[1]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
A : "[2]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu"
<[3]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>; Anthony Hind
<[4]agno3ph...@yahoo.com>
Envoye le : Dimanche 18 mars 2012 9h52
Objet : Pre-judgement (or wishful thinking) was Re: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re:
Ne Anthony Bailes CD
Dear Anthony,
I agree with most of what you write below. There is, however, one
elephant-in-the-room issue which, I think, goes to the heart of the
matter, viz: how much our individual pre-judgements/prejudices may
influence our choices in spite of the evidence.
A particular, and well documented, issue is that of using historically
unlikely instruments to satisfy our own prejudices (or wishful
thinking) of what the music ought to sound like. This exerts a great
(often sub-conscious?) influence over the instrument on which we choose
to play a particular repertoire - and can lead to using a type of
instrument for a certain repertoire (say mid/late 17th century French
lute music) which was unknown to players at the time.
Go back a modern generation or perhaps two and early keyboard music was
generally played on the piano and, on those rare occasions when a
pianist felt obliged to justify themselves, the reason given was
generally either simply 'I prefer it this way because there's more
sustain/volume/response/ etc' and/or 'JS Bach (or AN Other) would
have chosen a modern instrument if they had been around at the time'.
Both are pure assertion of course with no relation to the actual
evidence of the type of instrument, and thus the sound, the original
composers had in mind and what their contemporary auditors might
reasonably expect to hear.
Thus, on the lute, some modern tastes may seek a low pitched sound as
being somehow more suited to the music (eg 'capable of sustain'
etc) even where this flies in the face of historical evidence. Surely
we should look at the evidence first and then use the instrument which
best fits such an analysis. How else are we to properly serve the
composer's intentions?
regards
Martyn
--- On Fri, 16/3/12, Anthony Hind <[5]agno3ph...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>From: Anthony Hind <[6]agno3ph...@yahoo.com>
>Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Ne Anthony Bailes CD
>To: "[7]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu"
<[8]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
>Date: Friday, 16 March, 2012, 15:07
>
>
> Dear All
> Anthony Bailes LP recording of 'Pieces de luth'; EMI
REFLEXE;
> IC 06330938, was my introduction to French baroque lute music.
> After that I was hooked.
> I have enjoyed his recent CDs (although I had not yet heard this,
his
> most recent one), but regret that the recordings (in particular
"Old
> Gautiers Nightinghall") do seem to have become a little more
> reverberant, which may take away somewhat from his recent excellent
> string choices on the Wengerer: Nick Baldock trebles, Dan Larson,
Lyons
> Meanes, and Mimmo Peruffo loaded basses (although, I imagine that
with
> this 76cm lute pure gut basses should also work well). AB seems to
be
> one
of the few pioneers still experimenting seriously in gut stringing.
> %
> Indeed, Anthony B. has always had an experimental atttitude to
historic
> research. In his excellent article for Lute News 85, April 2008, he
> said, of the old Bologna lutes so sought after by the French, that
> Trichet tells us "French lute players were looking for instruments
> which were very resonant, and capable of sustain"; and he goes on
to
> tell us of his experience of playing old lutes, "The last, and most
> important point is that notes on such instruments have more sustain
> coupled with a more gradual and even decay to the sound. This is
> particularly important as it can give the impression that a note
sounds
> on longer than it actually
does."
> In his Gaultier recordings, AB considers this so necessary to his
> interpretation of this music that he appears willing to sacrifice
ideal
> string length (and possibly barring), adopting the 76cm historic
Wenger
> lute, just for the greater sustain this vintage lute affords.
> %
> Jakob Lindberg seems to confirm AB's experience, claiming two
almost
> contradictory characteristics for his Rauwolf: "this has exactly
what I
> want. It has that clarity but also sustain, which is amazing".
> %
> It seems to be the function of this quality that AB is seeking to
study
> with his recent recordings, at the expense of any characteristic
> specifically associated with more usual string lengths of around 68
cm
> (as correctly suggested by Martyn). Of course one might have
preferred
> AB to have discovered another 69.5 cm Rauwolf, Greiff (or
whatever),
> but no doubt he had to settle for the Wenger, or possibly chose it
to
> isolate what this could bring, in spite of string length and
barring
> differences.
> %
> The question then (implied by Martyn) is what AB may have gained or
> lost in choosing a lute which might seem more suitable for late
German
> Baroque.
> AB mentions the elegeance and economy in the music, and it is
possible
> that this also extended to the playing position and thus the length
of
> the lute chosen, as seen in the rather nonchalant confortable
elegant
> style of Charles
Mouton:
> [9]http://tinyurl.com/39r6xvd
> However, AB does have very long fingers, and seems to have very
little
> problem in playing with such string lengths:
> [10]http://tinyurl.com/77x475k
> Although the two do indeed look very different (and possibly, as
Martyn
> says, the second might have been incongruous to a French audience
of
> the time).
> %
> Soundwise, and this could be more important, we might have expected
the
> 276 year old Wenger to have lost a little in the mid register (as
> compared to the 80 to 100 year old 68 cm lutes that the French were
> seeking out), and with perhaps more bass
presence, due to the 76cm
> loaded basses: the French with their smaller lutes, may rather have
> been exploring the mid range, at the expense of these frequency
> extremes.
> Only listening to AB playing French music with this lute can
confirm or
> infirm, whether this is indeed the case.
> Unfortunateley, MP3 and recording equipment may not be up to the
job of
> discriminating this (can we be sure that we are not hearing the
mics,
> the room acoustics rather than differences in lutes).
> But here is a recording of a modern 67cm Warwick Frei (415) strung
in a
> not too different way, from the Wenger, with loaded basses and Nick
> Baldock Meanes and trebles.
> [11]http://luthiste.com/downloads/Mouton.mp3
> and here is an extract from Une Douceur violente, AB on the Wengere
> lute (375, loaded Basses, Larson Meanes, Baldock Trebles):
> Seventeenth-century French lute music
> [1][12]http://www.ramee.org/extraitsramee/1104/1104-01.mp3
> %
> Personally, trying only to concentrate on the tonal differences,
and
> abstracting from player's style, as well as recording level and
415/370
> pitch (an almost impossible task?) I enjoy both, and I do hear a
great
> deal of "presence" in the case of the old lute (with no obvious mid
> lack), but with exactly the slightly veiled (slightly nasal?)
quality,
> which AB
claims obliges him to play well back near the bridge with old
> lutes; this is my reaction, but I am not a musicologist, specialist
in
> french baroque music.
> Just to compare, here is the 69cm Rauwolf (with some gimped basses
and
> some first generation loaded) but playing Weiss:
> [13]http://www.musicamano.com/music/weiss.mp3
> I do find the Rauwolf more "agile" (which might be important for
the
> French repertoire) and a little less veiled and nasal; and this
could
> indeed be something to do with the difference of string length, or
just
> relating to the recording differences.
> %
> Finally an extract from "Old Gautiers Nightinghall" with AB playing
on
> a modern 12c lute, by Paul Thomson (stringing?):
> [14]http://www.ramee.org/extraitsramee/0707/0707_01.MP3
> The sound to me, here, is more bright (due to the pitch?), but with
> less depth; however, this is not the same tuning (or stringing),
and
> the recording is more reverberant.
> $
> In conclusion, Martyn is right, I don't think we should advocate
> performing French lute music with non-j-barred, 76cm lutes, and I
> understand his "mise en garde" to that effect (would any one,
including
> AB, order the Wengerer model from their lutemaker for the French
> repertoire? I would doubt it; while I for one did hesitate about
> ordering a
69cm Rauwolf, before going for a 70cm Warwick); but I have
> enjoyed the sound of the short extract from Une Douceur violente,
in
> spite of any doubts I might have had.
> That is of course just a personal reaction from a non specialist,
> addicted to AB's old LP.
> Regards
> Anthony
> ________________________________
> De : Edward Martin <[2][15]e...@gamutstrings.com>
> A : [3][16]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
> Envoye le : Vendredi 16 mars 2012 3h50
> Objet : [BAROQUE-LUTE] Ne Anthony Bailes CD
> Dear
Ones,
> For those on the list who enjoy well played 11-course French
baroque
> lute, there is a new release by Abthony Bailes, on the Ramee
> label. it is entitled, 'Une Douceur violente", and it contains
works
> of Mouton and Gallot. He recorded this program on his authentic
lute
> by Georgi Ferdinand Wenger, Augsburg, 1722. The catalog number is
> RAM 1104, and it is available in the USA, in usual outlets.
> This is an announcement, not a review. The instrument is a large
> one, and the pitch is consequently quite low, at a70, in essence
> making it in a b-minor tuning. Beautiful sound and playing, highly
> recommended.
> ed
> Edward Martin
> 2817 East 2nd
Street
> Duluth, Minnesota 55812
> e-mail: [4][17]e...@gamutstrings.com
> voice: (218) 728-1202
> [5][18]http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id60298871&ref=name
> [6][19]http://www.myspace.com/edslute
> [7][20]http://magnatune.com/artists/edward_martin
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> [8][21]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>
> --
>
>References
>
> 1. [22]http://www.ramee.org/extraitsramee/1104/1104-01.mp3
> 2. mailto:[23]e...@gamutstrings.com
> 3. mailto:[24]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
> 4. mailto:[25]e...@gamutstrings.com
> 5. [26]http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id60298871&ref=name
> 6. [27]http://www.myspace.com/edslute
> 7. [28]http://magnatune.com/artists/edward_martin
> 8. [29]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
>
>
--
References
1. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
2.
http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to%c2%baroque-l...@cs.dartmouth.edu
3.
http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to%c2%baroque-l...@cs.dartmouth.edu
4. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=agno3ph...@yahoo.com
5. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=agno3ph...@yahoo.com
6. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=agno3ph...@yahoo.com
7.
http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to%c2%baroque-l...@cs.dartmouth.edu
8.
http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to%c2%baroque-l...@cs.dartmouth.edu
9. http://tinyurl.com/39r6xvd
10. http://tinyurl.com/77x475k
11. http://luthiste.com/downloads/Mouton.mp3
12. http://www.ramee.org/extraitsramee/1104/1104-01.mp3
13. http://www.musicamano.com/music/weiss.mp3
14. http://www.ramee.org/extraitsramee/0707/0707_01.MP3
15. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to%c3...@gamutstrings.com
16.
http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to%c2%baroque-l...@cs.dartmouth.edu
17. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to%c3...@gamutstrings.com
18. http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id60298871&ref=name
19. http://www.myspace.com/edslute
20. http://magnatune.com/artists/edward_martin
21. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
22. http://www.ramee.org/extraitsramee/1104/1104-01.mp3
23. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to%c3...@gamutstrings.com
24.
http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to%c2%baroque-l...@cs.dartmouth.edu
25. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to%c3...@gamutstrings.com
26. http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id60298871&ref=name
27. http://www.myspace.com/edslute
28. http://magnatune.com/artists/edward_martin
29. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
