Thanks for the clarification Mimmo.
Unfortunately I'm playing in a concert on Saturday. The mandolin
meeting looks very interesting and I'd have liked to have attended that
too!
regards
Martyn
__________________________________________________________________
From: Mimmo <[email protected]>
To: Martyn Hodgson <[email protected]>
Cc: Matthew Daillie <[email protected]>; Martin Shepherd
<[email protected]>; "[email protected]"
<[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, 2 February 2017, 12:39
Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Baroque Lute Stringing
Thanks Martyn,
I mean more predominant fundamental and less sustain, more percussive .
Bacon is interesting here,
By the way, I am leaving Italy to,London royal,college .,there is a
meeting about mandolin this Saturday
Any chance to,meet,you?
Mimmo
> Il giorno 02 feb 2017, alle ore 11:53, Martyn Hodgson
<[1][email protected]> ha scritto:
>
> Dear Mimmo,
> Thank you for your continuing efforts in manufacturing these
strings.
> I agree with much of what has been said: - especially with Martin
> Shepherd about the unfortunate influence rose pluckers have had on
> stringing often leading to high tensions of overwound strings in the
> bass to avoid rattles. Much of this is caused by the large amplitude
of
> oscillation at the middle of a string when set in motion nearer the
mid
> point than close to the bridge. So playing close to the bridge not
only
> follows the practice of the post-sixteenth century 'Old Ones' but
also
> leads to real advantages. This manner of playing is, of course, also
> linked to the still widespread 'thumb under' school promoted from
the
> 1970s onwards as the 'proper true' way to pluck the lute!
> I also very much agree with your earlier observation that equal feel
> does not mean equal tension - the early writers would surely not
have
> been reporting the outcome of scientific instrument measurements but
of
> how it felt under the fingers when plucking. In short the stiffness
of
> thicker strings of the same material can make them harder to set in
> motion and thus mislead into thinking more force is being applied.
> Incidentally, there can sometimes be confusion between elasticity
and
> stiffness: elasticity is basically the ability of a material to
resume
> its normal shape after being deformed (in this case stretched - a
good
> thing in this context); whereas stiffness is the force required to
> deform (stretch ie displace) the string by an amount. Thus stiffness
is
> related to what happens before a string is released whereas
elasticity
> is what happens after. In this context elasticity is probably a good
> thing; stiffness not so.
> However my real purpose in writing is to ask precisely what you mean
by
> a 'darker' sound. Is it one with a more predominant fundemental note
or
> what?
> regards and, please, keep up the good work
> Martyn
> __________________________________________________________________
>
> From: Mimmo Peruffo <[2][email protected]>
> To: Matthew Daillie <[3][email protected]>; Martin Shepherd
> <[4][email protected]>
> Cc: [5][email protected]
> Sent: Thursday, 2 February 2017, 10:01
> Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Baroque Lute Stringing
> Mimmo again;
> the Gualtier tbel hs a diffrent interpretation that those relate to
> gauges
> or gut ribbons.
> I will do a article in matter in the next future.
> I am going to believe that maybe is better to switch to another
> elastomer
> whose elasticity is less. I have have already done some tests and I
> must
> admit that I was in figth with me which put in the market. Tony
Bailes
> topld
> me: pout the stiffer one because the osund is darker and they are
far
> less
> stretchly. Equal feel versus equal tension: well said dear Martin.
> there are
> other few things to consider; however the lute setup must be done
> scaled.
> Ciao
> mimmo
> -----Messaggio originale-----
> From: Martin Shepherd
> Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2017 10:26 AM
> To: Mimmo ; Matthew Daillie
> Cc: [1][6][email protected]
> Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Baroque Lute Stringing
> Dear All,
> If we're really interested in how lutes might have been strung
> historically, I think it's important to take the historical evidence
> (very little of it, I know) as a starting point, rather than the
habits
> of modern players using modern strings.
> We have a lot of iconographic evidence (plus the evidence from
> measuring
> bridge holes) that bass strings were rather thin - so the conclusion
> that they were more dense than a plain gut string seems pretty well
> inescapable.
> Having said that, the tensions which modern players expect may be
too
> high, for several reasons. One is that we are accustomed to wound
> strings, which are very flexible and don't work at all well if they
are
> at too low a tension. A related problem is that modern players tend
to
> play much further from the bridge than their historical
counterparts.
> Another issue is that we have tended to assume roughly equal tension
> across all the strings, so we have not experimented much with a
> tapering
> of tension as we go down into the bass. One interesting aspect of
the
> iconography is that strings get progressively thicker as they go
down
> into the bass, but not as much as one would expect if the tensions
were
> equal. To make this concrete, for a descent of an octave
(maintaining
> equal tension) the string should double in diameter, so the 6th
course
> on a 6c lute should be nearly twice the diameter of the 4th.
> On the subject of string diameters, Mimmo estimates the thinnest
string
> which could have been made in the past as .42-.44mm. Single top
strings
> will need to be a higher tension than the individual strings of a
> course, but even so it is more or less inevitable that the tension
must
> be tapered to some degree, otherwise bass strings (and tension)
would
> be
> enormous. Mimmo has recently written that equal tension is
different
> from equal "feel", and I agree with his suggestion that (in order to
> maintain equal feel) thinner strings should therefore be at a higher
> tension than thicker ones. I have done this as a matter of instinct
> for
> many years - using a higher tension on the second course than on the
> third, for example. As an aside, I note that most of us have tended
to
> use octaves at a lower tension than the fundamentals, but the string
> table in the Gaultier book (discovered by Andreas Schlegel), and my
> more
> recent experiments, suggest perhaps a more equal tension.
> As far as the characteristics of the strings is concerned, there are
> some apparent contradictions in the historical evidence. Many
> paintings
> give the impression that the strings were very floppy (compared to
> modern gut strings), with lengths of spare string dangling from the
> pegbox. On the other hand, one of the tests for a good string
> recommended by Dowland is "stiffness to the finger" (assessed before
> putting the string on the lute by pressing the end of the string to
see
> how bendy it is). In terms of elasticity, Mace talks about a string
> stretching "an inch or two" in the winding up - suggesting a string
> much
> more elastic than almost any modern string.
> Then we come to another apparent contradiction on the area of modern
> experiments. I have found the Savarez KF strings (made from PVDF,
much
> more dense then gut, so perhaps more like a "loaded" gut string as
far
> as density is concerned) work very well, in spite of being very
stiff
> and not very elastic. They also work well at lower tensions than
other
> types of string. They are usually pretty true, and that helps. The
> implication seems to be that a string which is sufficiently dense
(and
> can therefore be thin) doesn't need to be very elastic in order to
> work. I don't know how to reconcile this with the historical
evidence,
> but it occurs to me that there is a difference between elasticity
> (stretchiness) and "sideways flexibility" or "floppy flexibility"
> (which
> it seems the old strings may have had). Think of the difference
> between
> an rubber band and a piece of household string - the cotton string
is
> very floppy but has very little elasticity. All things considered I
> would definitely be interested to see Mimmo make a string with lower
> elasticity. Trueness is paramount - if a string is even slightly
false
> the irregular pattern of vibration will make it rattle against the
> frets
> and it will never sound well even as an open string.
> Just a few thoughts for you to chew on....
> Martin
>> On 02/02/2017 07:20, Mimmo wrote:
>> Well, I can add a few informations
>> There are no production problems it shelf. I had an extruder broken
> so I
>> was obliged to wait the time to fix it. After that I finished the
raw
>> material. I received it a week ago.
>> They has more amplitude in the vibration whose problem is mostly
> because
>> one should compensate the lack of tension when the strings are under
>> tension. In practice they became thinner that any wound strings. In
> short,
>> if the equivalent gut by calculation is 145 I raccomand to install
a
> 150
>> instead. So under tension the final gauge will be the suitable one.
>> Yes, there is no problem to switch to a more stiffer plastic blend.
> The
>> problem is that we lost a bit of brightness. Is it a good idea ? I
do
> not
>> know, people has the wound strings sound in comparation.
>> Take care
>> Mimmo Peruffo
>>
>>> Il giorno 01 feb 2017, alle ore 23:34, Matthew Daillie
>>> <[2][7][email protected]> ha scritto:
>>>
>>> Of the main copper-wound strings available, the fullest sounding
and
>>> brightest are the Kà ¼rschner followed by the Savarez, then the
> Aquila Ds
>>> and lastly the Aquila DEs, which are pretty dull (and are no longer
> being
>>> made although several retailers still have quite large stocks
> available).
>>>
>>> As far as I am concerned the jury is still out on the Aquila loaded
>>> nylgut. Many of us have high hopes but there are production
problems
>>> (there has only been one batch so far and many diameters are
> unavailable)
>>> and some strings can have considerably sideways amplitude when
> plucked
>>> (even causing them to catch neighbouring strings!) as well as
> intonation
>>> issues (but that is also true of a lot of wound strings).
>>>
>>> Best,
>>>
>>> Matthew
>>>
>>>> On 01/02/2017 22:25, David Rastall wrote:
>>>> It seems I am back playing Baroque lute once again, after rather a
> long
>>>> hiatus. It's been long enough that I have forgotten some of the
> points
>>>> of conventional wisdom concerning stringing. I'm playing an 11c
> lute
>>>> currently strung with silver-wound basses and Pyramid nylon mids
> and
>>>> trebles. I'm not so much bothered by the sustain of the nylon
> strings,
>>>> but if you folks can refresh my memory: what is the best choice
of
>>>> basses to get a sustain which is not downright thunky or chunky,
> but has
>>>> shorter sustain than the silver-wounds?
>>>>
>>>> David R
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> To get on or off this list see list information at
>>> [3][8]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>>
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