Ah ah
You are right.
Take care
Il giorno 08 apr 2017, alle ore 15:17, Andreas Schlegel
<[1]lute.cor...@sunrise.ch> ha scritto:
We are speaking from the same - but in a different way:
I'm speaking from the real breaking point at 250 Hz*m and you from the
"limit point" for the use, which is of course lower.
Ciao
Am 08.04.2017 um 14:52 schrieb Mimmo <[2]mperu...@aquilacorde.com>:
..thanks Andreas
..actually the working index of the majority od surviving and
hoping
not modified lutes and even 5 course guitars whose standard pitch
is
more or less can be know ( French pitch , German , Venetian pitch)
raging from 220 till 235 Hz/mt that is the poit were a gut top
string
start to stop to follow the stress /strain proportion. After this
limit
the string go ahead to breack (this happen two sentitone far, more
or
less. Depend by the string)
After that point a gut string do not stretch furthermore while the
frequency start to increase in a very fast way even for few turn
of the
peg (daniello bartoli 1670 ca: a gut string breack when it cannot
stretch furthermore )
A working index of 250 is out of any possibility. There is another
explanation that at present I do not have concerning the pitch
standard
Ciao
Mimmo
Il giorno 08 apr 2017, alle ore 14:28, Andreas Schlegel
<[1][3]lute.cor...@sunrise.ch> ha scritto:
Dear Mimmo,
First of all:
Strings for bowed instruments and strings for plucked instruments
are
more or less the same in fabrication - but not the same in the
concrete
musical use, as you know. So it's clear to me that there's a
difference
between the introduction of new string types for the two
categories of
sound production.
We have an other thing to think about (I spoke in Bremen on that
topic,
too):
The string length of old instruments is not so "normalised" than
we
have it today! The old ones had instruments from 65.5 up to 80 -
and
for the Deutsche Theorbe (with tuning d' a d f A G ...) very close
to
the breaking point for a'=415 Hz and 250 Hz*m at 85.5 cm (Venere /
Schelle Leipzig 3357) or 88 cm (Schelle 1728 Nürnberg MIR 574).
In the 1720ies we have many 13-course lutes with bass rider (f.ex.
Edlinger) with 75-78 cm. (By the way: They were tuned in which
pitch???
As close as possible to the breaking point [will be around
e'/eb']?
Lower?)
Lutes with swan neck up from c.1735 have again shorter string
lengths.
My simplification is at moment:
The swan neck (and the long 13-course lutes with bass rider) was
an
answer to the not completely satisfying use of overwound strings
(which
were used for the lowest basses only!) and the relatio of 3:4
(around a
fourth) between petit jeu and grand jeu allowed to go back to a
stringing in entirely the same material (the ambitus for the tones
was
f'-A [32 halftones] but the ambitus for the string material was
reduced
with the swan neck to f'-D [27 halftones]). We have to see that
the
octaves on swan neck lutes are also more brilliant than on a bass
rider
system.
You know that I have my Edlinger stringed with your open wound
strings
- and they work really well. But the main problem is the break
from
plain gut to overwound strings. My stringing with overwound
strings
from the 6th course down seems to be not historically correct - at
least for the first decades (but is much better than a mix). I
recorded
the Rust and Hagen sonatas with violin with this strings - and the
sound is really convincing.
There's one single instrument which is - in my opinion - converted
for
the use of overwound bass strings: the Venere / Schelle Leipzig
3357
which has no octaves in the grand jeu and which was a normal
tiorba,
but shortened in 1723/26. Perhaps the airplanes were invented in
those
times and it was more practical to have a smaller tiorba... ;-)
All the best,
Andreas
Am 08.04.2017 um 13:46 schrieb Mimmo Peruffo
<[2][4]mperu...@aquilacorde.com>:
Thanks Andreas. I have to know that
Ah, one more thing in matter of the 13 course swan neck lute:
There are some paintings were it is possible to 'see' white
basses
on the extended neck. Said that,. there is a well detaileed
painting
(David van Edward source) were the long diapasons are thick and
in a
grey colour. what to think?
One thing intrigue me: if the long basses were actually made of
pure
gut (and the risk is to have no advantage in the performances on
a
13 course lute with the rider strung with wound strings), WHY
the
scale was limited to 95 cms more or less only? I would reach
120 cm
almost just to still have the octaves to the basses and better
performances over the wound strings of the 13 course lutewith
rider.
heck.
Mimmo
-----Messaggio originale----- From: Andreas Schlegel
Sent: Saturday, April 8, 2017 12:04 PM
To: Mimmo Peruffo
Cc: lute list ; Baroque Lute List
Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Kupetzky image
Dear Mimmo,
You Andreas discovered the Lexicon of 1715 that actually was the
fist german source discovered.
I think it was Michael Treder who published first this source in
his
"Ein irdisches Vergnügen für Barocklaute" (I received an early
version in 2010). Perhaps Tim Crawford knew the Lexikon earlier,
but
who knows? It was at least a topic in 2012 in Bemen at the Bach
symposium and I already knew the citation by Michael and was
surprised that Tim mentioned it, too, in his lecture.
Per Kjetil Farstad doen't mentioned in his "Lautenistinnen in
Deutschland im 18. Jahrhundert" from 2011.
All the best,
Andreas
To get on or off this list see list information at
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Eckstr. 6
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[4][6]lute.cor...@sunrise.ch
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Andreas Schlegel
Eckstr. 6
CH-5737 Menziken
+41 (0)62 771 47 07
[11]lute.cor...@sunrise.ch
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