Dear Monica.
My responses are interposed below in bold, new roman and italic for
clear differentiation (sadly, though, not in my preferred typeface for
the others on the list version which only goes to them in standard
typeface and no spacing but, from what Wayne tells me, it'll reach you
with correct typeface etc)
I think we must still agree to disagree about much of
this!..........................
Best wishes,
Martyn
__________________________________________________________________
From: "mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk" <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
To: hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk; Daniel Shoskes <dshos...@mac.com>;
VihuelaList <vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Sent: Saturday, 6 January 2018, 16:41
Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Further to Re: Moravsky Manuscript AND five
course guitar stringing
Unfortunately the folio numbers are not very clear in the pdf. Some of
the pages seem to have been cropped on the right- hand side when the
film was made and the recto and verso of each folio is on a single page
of the pdf.
-
[MH: Yes - it's a shame about this]
-
I will try to refer to the correct ones.
To recap
Folio 48r is headed "Fundamenta Gytarra".
-
[MH: Indeed, and not as just 'Cytarra' (or Chytarra) as correctly
pointed
out in my last]
-
The tablature checks indicate that this instrument has five stopped
courses and one
additional unstopped bass course. Folio 48v is headed "Accordo Gytarra
et Mandora".
-
[MH: This is an incorrect assumption. The overwhelming bulk of pieces
of
pieces in this MS are clearly written for just a five course
instrument (see
my telling note earlier about the transcription for a five course
instrument
- I naturally suggest for gytarra for this version of the same (Losy?)
piece presented earlier for a six course instrument, the mandora).
-
You are right â I agree that these are two different instruments. The
Gytarra has five
stopped courses and one unstopped bass as shown in the first section of
the tablature.
-
{MH: No, you've got this mixed up, as explained earlier and again in
this
mail. The gytarra has five courses, the madora six. The theorboed
instrument is probably a theorboed guitar a la Strad or similar......
-
The Mandora has seven unstopped basses as shown in the
second section of tablature. It is to be assumed that the stopped
courses of both instruments are tuned in the same way. It is not for a
five course gytarra or a six course mandora as you seem to suggest.
-
[MH: This is a mistaken view of what the source tells us since, as
already pointed out, most of the pieces (some 85% of them) in the MS
are for just a five course instrument. You have assumed that the part
between the first set of double bar lines refers equally to the
gytarra
and to the mandora.
As already explained, this is mistaken because the overwhelming bulk
of pieces in the MS are, in fact, for a five course instrument (the
gytarra) rather than for the common mandora tuning with six courses.
I examine this matter again below]
-
I don't think either of these two examples refer to an instrument with
just five stopped courses.
-
[ MH: as said above, you appear to have overlooked contrary
information
about the tablature already brought to your attention earlier.]
-
On Folio 96r there is a table of alfabeto chords and a tablature tuning
chart headed "Accordo aliud" (?). If that is right I assume it means
"another tuning" but my Latin or Czech is pretty basic. In the table of
chords, the open courses to be included are only shown for Chord E;
Chord is very odd â Indeed, as pointed out, they are wrong - a B flat
minor chord with G on the first course. There are stroke marks on the
lowest line.
-
[MH: No - this is a simple bowlderisation and inaccurate
representation
of nominal five course guitar tuning (as employed in the following aria
set in tablature AND with Alafbeto - see my earlier note about this
feature in this particular piece which has been overlooked). Clearly
the tuning diagram showing an octave between the open first and fifth
fret on the third course makes no sense - neither does that between
the
third fret of the second course and the open third course! The scribe
has simply got the courses wrong......
It is the following aria (on f. 96v not on 96), identified in my last,
this
piece clearly confirms this piece as being in the ordinary nominal
guitar
tuning intervals - and not any known lute (or mandora!) tuning. The
mandora never employed Alfabeto as appears in this work
-
As far as the pieces are concerned, whether or not the unstopped sixth
course is used seems to depend on the key of the piece. Those on f.
48v- f.59v which use the sixth course are mostly in C major or keys
without sharps, whilst those from f. 60r âf.76v are in A major or D
major i.e. keys with sharps where there is no call for a low G
natural.
-
[MH: Surely you can't expect us to agree to this procrustean
interpreation?
You singularly overlook thebulk of all the pieces also in C to F and
those
in G and D from later in the MS.
And I've already clearly identified where the same (Losy?) piece was
tellingly transcribed - which surely disproves your suggestion: 'a
single counter example ....disproves a proposition......!']
-
From f.76v the pieces are numbered starting with 1 which seems to
represent a new "campaign" of copying. None of them use the unstopped G
â they could be for 5-course guitar or whatever instrument you wish.
There is nothing that lends weight to your suggestion that the gytarra
is a figure of eight-shaped instrument. It is could be lute shaped or
figure of eight - we simply don't know.
-
MH: See my earlier:
Particularly relevant here is the Rondeau C. Loschi (Losy?) on 51V
which employs the sixth course: however, the same piece is again
written out later in the collection (Rondon f.75) but, tellingly,
without the sixth course (g) and with the errant note simply
replaced by the open third course. Precisely the same practice might
have also been readily followed for the few earlier pieces (fol 48v to
57)
by a player with only a five course instrument. Finally, F 96 actually
has a table for guitar Alfabeto giving both the usual shorthand
symbols
and their tablature interpretation. This is followed (96v) by
a piece in
mixed notation employing both tablature and Alfabeto
symbols (in fact,
symbols B, F and G). Whilst telling us nothing unambiguous about the
instrument's shape, it is yet more weight to suggest a normal guitar
shaped instrument of the period was expected for the Gytarra.
Regarding the heading on 48v, this actually reads 'Accordo Gytarra
et Mandora' (ie tuning of gytarra AND mandora) - not Cytarra A
Mandore (perhaps the pdf is a poor copy?). This precise wording also
clearly implies different instruments but both having the same basic
tuning for five courses - otherwise it would have been 'Gytarra aliter
Mandora', or similar, to show that two different words were in that
case
referring to one and the same instrument.
I, of course, understand that this says nothing explicit about the
shape of the gytarra (Just because something is called a "cytarra"
doesn't
mean that it is a figure of eight shaped insturment), but I think it
highly
unlikely to be lute shaped like the mandora - else why have the very
similar
two instruments at all - but with a wholly different name?
Accordingly, I think, on the balance of probabilities, that the MS's
gytarra was,
indeed, probably shaped differently to the lute - and most likely as
contemporary
early eigteenth century guitar. Moreover, surely by the early
eighteenth century
there was no longer the earlier confusions over the renaissance
gittern/guitar
shape. I therefore see no compelling reason to suggest that, by this
later
period, MS D-189 required a gytarra that was not just an early
eighteenth
century gitarra/guitar shaped instrument.
instrument.
................. We may simply have to agree to disagree over this.
-
[MH: Further, the numerous gytarra pieces in Cmajor later in the MS
to those you mention in your reply could very easily be played with a
low sixth course (as the {Losy?} example well demonstrates)if these
later pieces were truly, as you suggest, also for a six course
instrument.
I think not - it is really stretching remote possibilities too far
over
probabilities to suggest otherwise.
Simply overlooked is that the majority of pieces after F. 67 are in
keys
where low G is at least as helpful as for the works on in the
following
keys of G, F. Cand D - BUT the scribe writes the G at the upper
octave:
a distintive feature of the guitar, butnot not of the period
mandora....., etc.
Good practical examples include: the Echo on f68 where the penultimate
bar would better with a low sixth course G - but the scribe writes a
high
third course, guitar appropriate g and numerous similar examples.
-
As far as I can see nothing in the manuscript sheds any light on
the position of
the high octave strings in the 18th century.
-
[MH: I disagree - see numerous highly relevant observations both in
this, and earlier, notes]disagree- see numerous relevant observations
above]
-
As far as I can recall I have never agreed that eighteenth-century
placement
of the octave strings might well not be the same as the earlier
seventeenth
century usage. On the contrary the fact that two mid-eighteenth century
sources (Corette and Rousseau in Diderot's Encyclopedie)
-
MH: Both late for comparison withD-189 and further not guitar
speciaists]
-
to the placement of the high octave strings on the thumb side of a
course suggests to me that this practice persisted well into the
eighteenth century whatever the style of the music. Corette's music
seems to be fairly standard Galant stuff.
-
MH Not comparable with the works in D189 or Diesel, et als it isn't
.......
or by the large madora reperoire of the early/mid eigteenth cenurt it
aint]
-
Monica
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------
----Original Message----
From: [1]hodgsonmar...@cs.dartmouth.edu
Date: 05/01/2018 14:26
To: "Monica Hall"<[2]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>, "Daniel
Shoskes"<[3]dshoskes@mac.
com>, "VihuelaList"<[4]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Subj: [VIHUELA] Further to Re: Moravsky Manuscript AND five course
guitar stringing
Dear Monica,
Thanks for this.
-
Further comments on MS D 189 Moravske zemske muzeum
-
The numbering on the document (by the archivist?) is of folios - not
pages or pdf pages - I think it better to use folios to
avoid ambiguity
(eg are your pdf pages in the correct folio sequence?).
Folio 48 (presumably your pdf 49) is headed ' Fundamenta Gytarra'
Folio 48v (your 50?) is headed 'Accordo Gytarra et Mandora'
The principal tuning (given between the first set of double bar
lines) is for a six course mandora or five course gytarra. However, the
low sixth course is only employed for the first few pieces (around 15%
only of the entire collection) and the remaining pieces employ a five
course instrument (whether a guitar or a mandora).
-
Particularly relevant here is the Rondeau C. Loschi (Losy?) on 51V
which employs the sixth course: however, the same piece is again
written out later in the collection (Rondon f.75) but, tellingly,
without the sixth course (g) and with the errant note simply
replaced by the open third course. Precisely the same practice might
have
also been readily followed for the few earlier pieces (fol 48v to 57)
by
a player with only a five course instrument. Finally, F 96 actually
has a table for guitar Alfabeto giving both the usual shorthand
symbols
and their tablature interpretation. This is followed (96v) by a
piece in mixed notation employing both tablature and Alfabeto symbols
(in
fact, B, F and G). Whilst telling us nothing unambiguous about the
instrument's shape, it is yet more weight to suggest a normal guitar
shaped instrument of the period was expected for the Gytarra.
Regarding the heading on 48v, this actually reads 'Accordo Gytarra
et Mandora' (ie tuning of gytarra AND mandora) - not Cytarra A Mandore
(perhaps the pdf is a poor copy?). This precise wording
also clearly implies
two different instruments but both having the same basic tuning for
five
courses - otherwise it would have been Gytarra aliter Mandora, or
similar,
to show that two different words were in that case referring to one and
the
same instrument.
I, of course, understand that this says nothing explicit about the
shape of the gytarra (Just because something is called a "cytarra"
doesn't
mean that it is a figure of eight shaped insturment), but I think it
highly unlikely
to be lute shaped like the mandora - else why have the two instruments
at all?
Accordingly, I think, on the balance of probabilities, that the gytarra
was,
indeed, probably shaped differently to the lute - and most likely as
contemporary
guitar
................. We may simply have to agree to disagree over this.
-
Further comments on Placement of high octaves on the lower courses
of the five course guitar
-
I had thought, following our earlier discussion those few years
back, that you agreed that eighteenth century placement of the
octave
strings might well not be the same as the earlier seventeenth century
usage.
But let me stress: this is not really just about a 'satisfactory
bass line' (and you know that we agree that this is not a necessary
feature of much seventeenth century guitar music) but more to do with
the
rather different musical style and texture of the later
(early/mid) eighteenth
century period.
Regarding the placing of the high octave string on the bass side
as general
eighteenth practice, the only source from the early eighteenth
century (the
rough date of D-189) which suggests this are Stradivari's (c
1700) instructions
which, in my view, reflects earlier seventeenth century practice.
The placement of the octave string on the lower courses was raised
in my earlier about MS D-189 because, since we do know the placement of
octaves on the mandora (ie on the treble side of a course), this source
therefore adds some further weight to the placing of these on
the instrument(s)
actually expected for this music
Finally and again, we may have to agree to disagree: - in this case
about central/northern European guitar tuning in the eighteenth
century for music like that in D189 as well as the interesting works
by
Diesel later in the century and others.......................
Best wishes for 2018.
Martyn
-
----- Forwarded Message -----
From: "[5]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk" <[6]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
To: VihuelaList <[7]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Sent: Thursday, 4 January 2018, 15:12
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Moravsky Manuscript AND five course guitar
stringing
Dear Martyn, Ralf and anyone else who is interested
First of all, the instrument referred to as a "Cytarra" or "Gytarra"
on
p.49 of the pdf (it's easiest to refer to these rather than the
original folio numbers) appears to have 5 stopped courses and one
unstopped bass string. If that is the case it is not a 5-course
guitar.
This should really be referred to as either chitarra (Italian) or
guitarra (Spanish). Some of the tablature pieces are for a 5-course
instrument with a sixth open bass.
The tuning chart on p.50 is for the "Cytarra A Mandore" which
suggests
to me that they are one and the same insrument à ¢ a 5-course
instrument
with 7 unstopped basses. The piece in tablature which follows is for
this configuration.
Just because something is called a "cytarra" doesn't mean that it is
a
figure of 8 shaped instrument.
The tuning chart on p. 97 à ¢ ignoring the first interval à ¢ the
first
three intervals are the standard unison intervals of French tuning
checks; however the last one indicates that the fifth course is in
unison with the 3rd course stopped at the 2nd fret. There is no
indication that there is a low octave string on the 5th course. The
first interval is odd; the first course can't be in unison with the
3rd
course stopped at the 5th fret. I can't really read the heading à ¢
but I
wonder if it is Accord a whatever the Czech word for unison is.
As for placing the high octave strings on the thumb side of a course
à ¢
Ruiz de Ribayaz mentions this in "Luz y Norte musical (1677). The
fact
that several 18th century sources indicate this explicitly suggests
that it was the standard way of stringing à ¢ regardless of whether
to
our ears today this creates a satisfactory bass line. It is all a
matter of how you strike the strings. Having the high string on the
thumb side enables you to use the high octave string on its own more
easily as Corrette indicates.
A happy New Year to everyone.
Monica
----Original Message----
From: [1][8]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
Date: 04/01/2018 11:33
To: "[2][9]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk"<[3][10]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>,
"[4][11]dshos...@mac.com"
<[5][12]dshos...@mac.com>
Cc: "VihuelaList"<[6][13]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu>, "Baroque Lute
List"
<[7][14]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Subj: Re: Moravsky Manuscript AND five course guitar stringing
Dear Monica,
Comments on D 189 Moravske zemske muzeum
We briefly discussed this interesting MS some four years ago -
partly
in the context of the placement of the octave strings on the fourth
(and fifth) course of the five course guitar. I also recall posting
something on Wayne's baroque guitar list (or was it Early guitar.
ning?....) around this time. I was especially interested in the
stated
link in this MS between (aka mandora) and the guitar and possible
implications for placement of the high octave strings on the fourth
(and fifth?) course.
This MS contains pieces for five course guitar, mandora/callichon,
and
the viola di(a) gamb(a). Folio.3 has tunings for a five course
instrument which the MS calls the 'Calledono' and folio 48 (gamba
pieces and blanks between) gives elementary instructions for the
five
course guitar ' Fundamenta Chytarra'.
Of special interest is folio 48v headed 'Accorde Chytarra et
Mandora'
which unequivocally relates the two instruments and gives the
identical
tuning in note names for both: a, d, g, h(ie B), e. Especially
note
that the note names for each course are all given as low case (even
the
extended basses, see below) and there is no octave or octave
stringing
indicated - accordingly from this alone, no conclusive judgements
can
be made whether the source requires re-entrant or low bourdons, or
what
arrangement for bass stringing..
This is followed by instructions for tuning seven addition bass
course
(presumably a theorboed guitar and/or mandora - both instruments not
entirely unknown of course) from sixth down to twelfth course
(notated
by numbers 6 through to 12): g, f or f#, e, d, c or c#, h(B) or b
(Bb), a. However only the first musical example employs these
additional low basses - and even then only as an alternative to
fingered fifth course which is also notated - presumably meant to
illustrate the practice.
Playing the music I was struck by how similar they pieces were in
texture to contemporary works for mandora and also the guitar works
attributed to Logy and also, and especially, those by Nathanial
Diesel.
It all made me wonder if the high octave on the 'bass' side was as
general as we all nowadays usually suppose? From the texture of the
music I'm confident that the Diesel is for a low octave on the bass
side - it's also not that much later than the attrib Logy pieces. So
I
wonder if in German speaking (and Nordic lands) around this time (ie
early/mid eighteenth century) the practice may have been closer to
the
5 course mandora where the low octave is certainly on the bass side.
This paper below discusses some possible sources of Logy's
works
[8][15]http://bazhum.muzhp.pl/media//files/Musicology_Today/Musicolog
y_Today-r2004-t1/Musicology_Today-r2004-t1-s77-95/Musicology_Today-
r200
4-t1-s77-95.pdf
Placement of high octaves on the lower courses of the five course
guitar
The sources which clearly indicate the high octave on the 'bass'
side
of the five course are all eighteenth century: principally
Stradivari's (c 1710) instructions for stringing a sort of theorboed
guitar; Diderot in 1757 and Merchi in 1761. A couple of iconographic
sources may, or may not, indicate the earlier placement continuing
into
the eighteenth century ......
The placement of the high octave on the 'bass' side in the French
(aka
Corbetta) tuning has nowadays been generally accepted and, in some
circumstances, may seem to resolve some problems of voice leading
etc -
conversely it can also do exactly the opposite! My view is that for
much seventeenth century music, voice leading jumps etc resulting
from
a fully re-entrant or French tuning are simply a part of the
instrument's novel texture and style, but that in the more treble
and
bass orientated works of the eighteenth century (eg the above) the
bass
string of the fourth (and fifth) course is more suitable if on the
'bass' side of the guitar
This is much based on my own experience in playing Diesel, the
'Losy'
guitar works, D-189 MS and some other late 'guitar' sources on the
mandora (with its bass strings on the bass side). In my view this
arrangement gives a much more satisfactory musical result for the
style
and period of this later music. But, of course, this is something of
a
subjective judgement...........
Martyn
From: "[9][16]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk"
<[10][17]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
To: [11][18]dshos...@mac.com
Cc: VihuelaList <[12][19]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, 3 January 2018, 20:28
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Moravsky Manuscript
The music in tablature appears to be for 5-course guitar. There are
a
few 5-part chords which could be strummed but it seems to be mainly
in
lute style and perhaps mid 18th century. How do we know that the
music
is actually by Losy? Which library owns it today?
The rest seems to be for mandora or gallichon. Martyn may know more
about it if he has read this.
Monica
--
References
1. mailto:hodgsonmar...@cs.dartmouth.edu
2. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
3. mailto:dshoskes@mac.
4. mailto:vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu
5. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
6. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
7. mailto:vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu
8. mailto:hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
9. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
10. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
11. mailto:dshos...@mac.com
12. mailto:dshos...@mac.com
13. mailto:vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu
14. mailto:baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
15. http://bazhum.muzhp.pl/media//files/Musicology_Today/Musicolog
16. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
17. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
18. mailto:dshos...@mac.com
19. mailto:vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu
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