Dear Monica. My responses are interposed below in bold, new roman and italic for clear differentiation (sadly, though, not in my preferred typeface for the others on the list version which only goes to them in standard typeface and no spacing but, from what Wayne tells me, it'll reach you with correct typeface etc) I think we must still agree to disagree about much of this!.......................... Best wishes, Martyn __________________________________________________________________
From: "mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk" <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> To: hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk; Daniel Shoskes <dshos...@mac.com>; VihuelaList <vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu> Sent: Saturday, 6 January 2018, 16:41 Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Further to Re: Moravsky Manuscript AND five course guitar stringing Unfortunately the folio numbers are not very clear in the pdf. Some of the pages seem to have been cropped on the right- hand side when the film was made and the recto and verso of each folio is on a single page of the pdf. - [MH: Yes - it's a shame about this] - I will try to refer to the correct ones. To recap Folio 48r is headed "Fundamenta Gytarra". - [MH: Indeed, and not as just 'Cytarra' (or Chytarra) as correctly pointed out in my last] - The tablature checks indicate that this instrument has five stopped courses and one additional unstopped bass course. Folio 48v is headed "Accordo Gytarra et Mandora". - [MH: This is an incorrect assumption. The overwhelming bulk of pieces of pieces in this MS are clearly written for just a five course instrument (see my telling note earlier about the transcription for a five course instrument - I naturally suggest for gytarra for this version of the same (Losy?) piece presented earlier for a six course instrument, the mandora). - You are right â I agree that these are two different instruments. The Gytarra has five stopped courses and one unstopped bass as shown in the first section of the tablature. - {MH: No, you've got this mixed up, as explained earlier and again in this mail. The gytarra has five courses, the madora six. The theorboed instrument is probably a theorboed guitar a la Strad or similar...... - The Mandora has seven unstopped basses as shown in the second section of tablature. It is to be assumed that the stopped courses of both instruments are tuned in the same way. It is not for a five course gytarra or a six course mandora as you seem to suggest. - [MH: This is a mistaken view of what the source tells us since, as already pointed out, most of the pieces (some 85% of them) in the MS are for just a five course instrument. You have assumed that the part between the first set of double bar lines refers equally to the gytarra and to the mandora. As already explained, this is mistaken because the overwhelming bulk of pieces in the MS are, in fact, for a five course instrument (the gytarra) rather than for the common mandora tuning with six courses. I examine this matter again below] - I don't think either of these two examples refer to an instrument with just five stopped courses. - [ MH: as said above, you appear to have overlooked contrary information about the tablature already brought to your attention earlier.] - On Folio 96r there is a table of alfabeto chords and a tablature tuning chart headed "Accordo aliud" (?). If that is right I assume it means "another tuning" but my Latin or Czech is pretty basic. In the table of chords, the open courses to be included are only shown for Chord E; Chord is very odd â Indeed, as pointed out, they are wrong - a B flat minor chord with G on the first course. There are stroke marks on the lowest line. - [MH: No - this is a simple bowlderisation and inaccurate representation of nominal five course guitar tuning (as employed in the following aria set in tablature AND with Alafbeto - see my earlier note about this feature in this particular piece which has been overlooked). Clearly the tuning diagram showing an octave between the open first and fifth fret on the third course makes no sense - neither does that between the third fret of the second course and the open third course! The scribe has simply got the courses wrong...... It is the following aria (on f. 96v not on 96), identified in my last, this piece clearly confirms this piece as being in the ordinary nominal guitar tuning intervals - and not any known lute (or mandora!) tuning. The mandora never employed Alfabeto as appears in this work - As far as the pieces are concerned, whether or not the unstopped sixth course is used seems to depend on the key of the piece. Those on f. 48v- f.59v which use the sixth course are mostly in C major or keys without sharps, whilst those from f. 60r âf.76v are in A major or D major i.e. keys with sharps where there is no call for a low G natural. - [MH: Surely you can't expect us to agree to this procrustean interpreation? You singularly overlook thebulk of all the pieces also in C to F and those in G and D from later in the MS. And I've already clearly identified where the same (Losy?) piece was tellingly transcribed - which surely disproves your suggestion: 'a single counter example ....disproves a proposition......!'] - From f.76v the pieces are numbered starting with 1 which seems to represent a new "campaign" of copying. None of them use the unstopped G â they could be for 5-course guitar or whatever instrument you wish. There is nothing that lends weight to your suggestion that the gytarra is a figure of eight-shaped instrument. It is could be lute shaped or figure of eight - we simply don't know. - MH: See my earlier: Particularly relevant here is the Rondeau C. Loschi (Losy?) on 51V which employs the sixth course: however, the same piece is again written out later in the collection (Rondon f.75) but, tellingly, without the sixth course (g) and with the errant note simply replaced by the open third course. Precisely the same practice might have also been readily followed for the few earlier pieces (fol 48v to 57) by a player with only a five course instrument. Finally, F 96 actually has a table for guitar Alfabeto giving both the usual shorthand symbols and their tablature interpretation. This is followed (96v) by a piece in mixed notation employing both tablature and Alfabeto symbols (in fact, symbols B, F and G). Whilst telling us nothing unambiguous about the instrument's shape, it is yet more weight to suggest a normal guitar shaped instrument of the period was expected for the Gytarra. Regarding the heading on 48v, this actually reads 'Accordo Gytarra et Mandora' (ie tuning of gytarra AND mandora) - not Cytarra A Mandore (perhaps the pdf is a poor copy?). This precise wording also clearly implies different instruments but both having the same basic tuning for five courses - otherwise it would have been 'Gytarra aliter Mandora', or similar, to show that two different words were in that case referring to one and the same instrument. I, of course, understand that this says nothing explicit about the shape of the gytarra (Just because something is called a "cytarra" doesn't mean that it is a figure of eight shaped insturment), but I think it highly unlikely to be lute shaped like the mandora - else why have the very similar two instruments at all - but with a wholly different name? Accordingly, I think, on the balance of probabilities, that the MS's gytarra was, indeed, probably shaped differently to the lute - and most likely as contemporary early eigteenth century guitar. Moreover, surely by the early eighteenth century there was no longer the earlier confusions over the renaissance gittern/guitar shape. I therefore see no compelling reason to suggest that, by this later period, MS D-189 required a gytarra that was not just an early eighteenth century gitarra/guitar shaped instrument. instrument. ................. We may simply have to agree to disagree over this. - [MH: Further, the numerous gytarra pieces in Cmajor later in the MS to those you mention in your reply could very easily be played with a low sixth course (as the {Losy?} example well demonstrates)if these later pieces were truly, as you suggest, also for a six course instrument. I think not - it is really stretching remote possibilities too far over probabilities to suggest otherwise. Simply overlooked is that the majority of pieces after F. 67 are in keys where low G is at least as helpful as for the works on in the following keys of G, F. Cand D - BUT the scribe writes the G at the upper octave: a distintive feature of the guitar, butnot not of the period mandora....., etc. Good practical examples include: the Echo on f68 where the penultimate bar would better with a low sixth course G - but the scribe writes a high third course, guitar appropriate g and numerous similar examples. - As far as I can see nothing in the manuscript sheds any light on the position of the high octave strings in the 18th century. - [MH: I disagree - see numerous highly relevant observations both in this, and earlier, notes]disagree- see numerous relevant observations above] - As far as I can recall I have never agreed that eighteenth-century placement of the octave strings might well not be the same as the earlier seventeenth century usage. On the contrary the fact that two mid-eighteenth century sources (Corette and Rousseau in Diderot's Encyclopedie) - MH: Both late for comparison withD-189 and further not guitar speciaists] - to the placement of the high octave strings on the thumb side of a course suggests to me that this practice persisted well into the eighteenth century whatever the style of the music. Corette's music seems to be fairly standard Galant stuff. - MH Not comparable with the works in D189 or Diesel, et als it isn't ....... or by the large madora reperoire of the early/mid eigteenth cenurt it aint] - Monica ----------------------------------------------------------------------- --------------------- ----Original Message---- From: [1]hodgsonmar...@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: 05/01/2018 14:26 To: "Monica Hall"<[2]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>, "Daniel Shoskes"<[3]dshoskes@mac. com>, "VihuelaList"<[4]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu> Subj: [VIHUELA] Further to Re: Moravsky Manuscript AND five course guitar stringing Dear Monica, Thanks for this. - Further comments on MS D 189 Moravske zemske muzeum - The numbering on the document (by the archivist?) is of folios - not pages or pdf pages - I think it better to use folios to avoid ambiguity (eg are your pdf pages in the correct folio sequence?). Folio 48 (presumably your pdf 49) is headed ' Fundamenta Gytarra' Folio 48v (your 50?) is headed 'Accordo Gytarra et Mandora' The principal tuning (given between the first set of double bar lines) is for a six course mandora or five course gytarra. However, the low sixth course is only employed for the first few pieces (around 15% only of the entire collection) and the remaining pieces employ a five course instrument (whether a guitar or a mandora). - Particularly relevant here is the Rondeau C. Loschi (Losy?) on 51V which employs the sixth course: however, the same piece is again written out later in the collection (Rondon f.75) but, tellingly, without the sixth course (g) and with the errant note simply replaced by the open third course. Precisely the same practice might have also been readily followed for the few earlier pieces (fol 48v to 57) by a player with only a five course instrument. Finally, F 96 actually has a table for guitar Alfabeto giving both the usual shorthand symbols and their tablature interpretation. This is followed (96v) by a piece in mixed notation employing both tablature and Alfabeto symbols (in fact, B, F and G). Whilst telling us nothing unambiguous about the instrument's shape, it is yet more weight to suggest a normal guitar shaped instrument of the period was expected for the Gytarra. Regarding the heading on 48v, this actually reads 'Accordo Gytarra et Mandora' (ie tuning of gytarra AND mandora) - not Cytarra A Mandore (perhaps the pdf is a poor copy?). This precise wording also clearly implies two different instruments but both having the same basic tuning for five courses - otherwise it would have been Gytarra aliter Mandora, or similar, to show that two different words were in that case referring to one and the same instrument. I, of course, understand that this says nothing explicit about the shape of the gytarra (Just because something is called a "cytarra" doesn't mean that it is a figure of eight shaped insturment), but I think it highly unlikely to be lute shaped like the mandora - else why have the two instruments at all? Accordingly, I think, on the balance of probabilities, that the gytarra was, indeed, probably shaped differently to the lute - and most likely as contemporary guitar ................. We may simply have to agree to disagree over this. - Further comments on Placement of high octaves on the lower courses of the five course guitar - I had thought, following our earlier discussion those few years back, that you agreed that eighteenth century placement of the octave strings might well not be the same as the earlier seventeenth century usage. But let me stress: this is not really just about a 'satisfactory bass line' (and you know that we agree that this is not a necessary feature of much seventeenth century guitar music) but more to do with the rather different musical style and texture of the later (early/mid) eighteenth century period. Regarding the placing of the high octave string on the bass side as general eighteenth practice, the only source from the early eighteenth century (the rough date of D-189) which suggests this are Stradivari's (c 1700) instructions which, in my view, reflects earlier seventeenth century practice. The placement of the octave string on the lower courses was raised in my earlier about MS D-189 because, since we do know the placement of octaves on the mandora (ie on the treble side of a course), this source therefore adds some further weight to the placing of these on the instrument(s) actually expected for this music Finally and again, we may have to agree to disagree: - in this case about central/northern European guitar tuning in the eighteenth century for music like that in D189 as well as the interesting works by Diesel later in the century and others....................... Best wishes for 2018. Martyn - ----- Forwarded Message ----- From: "[5]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk" <[6]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> To: VihuelaList <[7]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu> Sent: Thursday, 4 January 2018, 15:12 Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Moravsky Manuscript AND five course guitar stringing Dear Martyn, Ralf and anyone else who is interested First of all, the instrument referred to as a "Cytarra" or "Gytarra" on p.49 of the pdf (it's easiest to refer to these rather than the original folio numbers) appears to have 5 stopped courses and one unstopped bass string. If that is the case it is not a 5-course guitar. This should really be referred to as either chitarra (Italian) or guitarra (Spanish). Some of the tablature pieces are for a 5-course instrument with a sixth open bass. The tuning chart on p.50 is for the "Cytarra A Mandore" which suggests to me that they are one and the same insrument à ¢ a 5-course instrument with 7 unstopped basses. The piece in tablature which follows is for this configuration. Just because something is called a "cytarra" doesn't mean that it is a figure of 8 shaped instrument. The tuning chart on p. 97 à ¢ ignoring the first interval à ¢ the first three intervals are the standard unison intervals of French tuning checks; however the last one indicates that the fifth course is in unison with the 3rd course stopped at the 2nd fret. There is no indication that there is a low octave string on the 5th course. The first interval is odd; the first course can't be in unison with the 3rd course stopped at the 5th fret. I can't really read the heading à ¢ but I wonder if it is Accord a whatever the Czech word for unison is. As for placing the high octave strings on the thumb side of a course à ¢ Ruiz de Ribayaz mentions this in "Luz y Norte musical (1677). The fact that several 18th century sources indicate this explicitly suggests that it was the standard way of stringing à ¢ regardless of whether to our ears today this creates a satisfactory bass line. It is all a matter of how you strike the strings. Having the high string on the thumb side enables you to use the high octave string on its own more easily as Corrette indicates. A happy New Year to everyone. Monica ----Original Message---- From: [1][8]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Date: 04/01/2018 11:33 To: "[2][9]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk"<[3][10]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>, "[4][11]dshos...@mac.com" <[5][12]dshos...@mac.com> Cc: "VihuelaList"<[6][13]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu>, "Baroque Lute List" <[7][14]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> Subj: Re: Moravsky Manuscript AND five course guitar stringing Dear Monica, Comments on D 189 Moravske zemske muzeum We briefly discussed this interesting MS some four years ago - partly in the context of the placement of the octave strings on the fourth (and fifth) course of the five course guitar. I also recall posting something on Wayne's baroque guitar list (or was it Early guitar. ning?....) around this time. I was especially interested in the stated link in this MS between (aka mandora) and the guitar and possible implications for placement of the high octave strings on the fourth (and fifth?) course. This MS contains pieces for five course guitar, mandora/callichon, and the viola di(a) gamb(a). Folio.3 has tunings for a five course instrument which the MS calls the 'Calledono' and folio 48 (gamba pieces and blanks between) gives elementary instructions for the five course guitar ' Fundamenta Chytarra'. Of special interest is folio 48v headed 'Accorde Chytarra et Mandora' which unequivocally relates the two instruments and gives the identical tuning in note names for both: a, d, g, h(ie B), e. Especially note that the note names for each course are all given as low case (even the extended basses, see below) and there is no octave or octave stringing indicated - accordingly from this alone, no conclusive judgements can be made whether the source requires re-entrant or low bourdons, or what arrangement for bass stringing.. This is followed by instructions for tuning seven addition bass course (presumably a theorboed guitar and/or mandora - both instruments not entirely unknown of course) from sixth down to twelfth course (notated by numbers 6 through to 12): g, f or f#, e, d, c or c#, h(B) or b (Bb), a. However only the first musical example employs these additional low basses - and even then only as an alternative to fingered fifth course which is also notated - presumably meant to illustrate the practice. Playing the music I was struck by how similar they pieces were in texture to contemporary works for mandora and also the guitar works attributed to Logy and also, and especially, those by Nathanial Diesel. It all made me wonder if the high octave on the 'bass' side was as general as we all nowadays usually suppose? From the texture of the music I'm confident that the Diesel is for a low octave on the bass side - it's also not that much later than the attrib Logy pieces. So I wonder if in German speaking (and Nordic lands) around this time (ie early/mid eighteenth century) the practice may have been closer to the 5 course mandora where the low octave is certainly on the bass side. This paper below discusses some possible sources of Logy's works [8][15]http://bazhum.muzhp.pl/media//files/Musicology_Today/Musicolog y_Today-r2004-t1/Musicology_Today-r2004-t1-s77-95/Musicology_Today- r200 4-t1-s77-95.pdf Placement of high octaves on the lower courses of the five course guitar The sources which clearly indicate the high octave on the 'bass' side of the five course are all eighteenth century: principally Stradivari's (c 1710) instructions for stringing a sort of theorboed guitar; Diderot in 1757 and Merchi in 1761. A couple of iconographic sources may, or may not, indicate the earlier placement continuing into the eighteenth century ...... The placement of the high octave on the 'bass' side in the French (aka Corbetta) tuning has nowadays been generally accepted and, in some circumstances, may seem to resolve some problems of voice leading etc - conversely it can also do exactly the opposite! My view is that for much seventeenth century music, voice leading jumps etc resulting from a fully re-entrant or French tuning are simply a part of the instrument's novel texture and style, but that in the more treble and bass orientated works of the eighteenth century (eg the above) the bass string of the fourth (and fifth) course is more suitable if on the 'bass' side of the guitar This is much based on my own experience in playing Diesel, the 'Losy' guitar works, D-189 MS and some other late 'guitar' sources on the mandora (with its bass strings on the bass side). In my view this arrangement gives a much more satisfactory musical result for the style and period of this later music. But, of course, this is something of a subjective judgement........... Martyn From: "[9][16]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk" <[10][17]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> To: [11][18]dshos...@mac.com Cc: VihuelaList <[12][19]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu> Sent: Wednesday, 3 January 2018, 20:28 Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Moravsky Manuscript The music in tablature appears to be for 5-course guitar. There are a few 5-part chords which could be strummed but it seems to be mainly in lute style and perhaps mid 18th century. How do we know that the music is actually by Losy? Which library owns it today? The rest seems to be for mandora or gallichon. Martyn may know more about it if he has read this. Monica -- References 1. mailto:hodgsonmar...@cs.dartmouth.edu 2. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk 3. mailto:dshoskes@mac. 4. mailto:vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu 5. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk 6. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk 7. mailto:vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu 8. mailto:hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk 9. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk 10. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk 11. mailto:dshos...@mac.com 12. mailto:dshos...@mac.com 13. mailto:vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu 14. mailto:baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 15. http://bazhum.muzhp.pl/media//files/Musicology_Today/Musicolog 16. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk 17. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk 18. mailto:dshos...@mac.com 19. mailto:vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html