Dear Martyn
The message which you have attached below is NOT the message which I
sent to the Vihuela List on the 31st January.
I suggest you retrieve this from the Archives and ACTUALLY READ IT
CAREFULLY. It is the second down below your latest message.
Frankly I am not really interested in anything that you have to say
about this as it is clear that you do not know what you are talking
about. You are only interested in disseminating your own cranky ideas.
Re copying things to the Baroque Lute list - when I signed up I
received a message saying that cross-posting was not allowed. I don't
think that anyone on this list is interested in anything you have to
say and I hope that they will ignore it. Personally I don't want to
receive three copies of every message you see fit
to send. I may query this with Wayne if you persist.
As ever
Monica
From: Martyn Hodgson <hodgsonmar...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
To: "mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk" <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>; VihuelaList
<vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu>; Baroque Lute List
<baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Sent: Friday, 9 February 2018, 14:26
Subject: Further to Re: Moravsky MS (CZ. Brno D 189) - a fresh
tack!
2
Dear Monica.
Thanks for your latest of 31 Jan (below) and forgive the delay in
replying - it's only today risen to the top of my current 'to do'
list!
I note what you say and will respond in due course. However, to
enable
me to do this properly, it will be helpful if you would now confirm
precisely what your position is on the instrument(s) required for
the
pieces in this MS. In my last of 29 Jan (- also below) I wrote:
'- as I understand it from what you have written, your position is
that
the vast majority (about 98%) of
the some 124 works for plucked instruments in this MS are for a six
course gytarra and that just three
are for a mandora (according to you a twelve course instrument with
five fingered courses and seven
free basses - you stated that "The mandora has seven unstopped
basses" )'
Is this a correct statement of your position?
regards
Martyn
PS I copy this to the 'Baroque Lute' list since the mandora is a
lute
instrument - and a baroque lute to boot!
=======================================================================
======
----- Forwarded Message -----
From: Martyn Hodgson <hodgsonmar...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
To: Monica Hall <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>; VihuelaList
<vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu>; Baroque Lute List
<baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Sent: Monday, 29 January 2018, 17:01
Subject: Moravsky MS (CZ Brno D189) - a fresh tack!
Dear Monica,
As you now know, I haven't yet replied to your latest open
mailings since these had both ended by
saying that you 'were going to leave it for now' and I therefore
took
this as meaning I might soon
expect something further. Accordingly, not wishing to respond in a
piecemeal and disjointed manner,
I deliberately delayed replying and awaited your further thoughts.
However, I shall do so now.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------
Regarding copying things to other lists, just to be quite clear, I
generally copy things to other of
Wayne's lists if they're relevant there. Hence why gallichon/mandora
stuff (but usually not guitar)
can find its way onto the lute lists (or, indeed, elsewhere) - it's
not
a fiendish plot of any kind! But on
with the motley..........
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------
Our exchanges of 'textual analysis' have clearly failed to persuade
each other of our respective cases
and therefore, to make any progress, another tack is now required:
one more forensic perhaps and
closer related to contemporary organological, musicological and
source
evidence. Firstly though, to summarise our respective positions:
- as I understand it from what you have written, your position is
that the vast majority (about 98%) of
the some 124 works for plucked instruments in this MS are for a six
course gytarra and that just three
are for a mandora (according to you a twelve course instrument with
five fingered courses and seven
free basses - you stated that "The mandora has seven unstopped
basses" );
- mine is that the 28 pieces notated with a sixth course are for
mandora and that the remainder
requiring just five courses are principally for gytarra (although,
as I
was at pains to point out earlier,
any passably competent mandora player would easily be able to add a
low sixth where suitable in the
guitar pieces and similarly, in many cases, a guitarist would be
able
to play the errant low bass an
octave up by employing the open third course). The couple of pieces
which have the seven additional
free basses notated also have a left hand fingered bass notated in
the
usual register and, whilst we've
not discussed this so far, I believe these additional low course
numberings are therefore simply later additions to these two pieces
(note also that the scribe left off adding these low basses half way
through the piece numbered 45! ).
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------
1. DATE OF D-189
You stated that the MS could have been written "anytime in the
eighteenth century" - but with no
evidence for this assertion. I do, of course, understand why you
favour such a wide range of dates
since it may help give some credence to employing a six course
guitar
(developed, in fact, only later
in the eighteenth century) for all the plucked works in this
collection
However, others date the writing of this MS considerably earlier,
including:
James Tyler - 'early 18th century';
Gary Boye - 'beginning of the 18th century';
Ernst Pohlmann - 'um 1700' (around 1700);
Jaroslav Pohanka (Principal editor of Musica Antiqua Bohemia) - 'vor
1700 geschrieben' (written
before 1700);
My own dating (based on stylistic traits and the piece attributed
to
C. Loschi) is 1700 to 1720.
Accordingly, to summarise, the best date range estimate for
compilation
of this MS lies between 1690
and 1720.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------
2. CALLICHON/MANDORA
Around 70 extant historical mandoras/gallichons have been identified
made between 1688 and 1780
(most are listed in Dieter Kirsch's 'La mandora au XVIII siecle):
the
vast majority (97%) of these are six course instruments but a couple
have more courses - one is 8 course and one 9 course . These two
are both later eighteenth century and thus too late to be the sort
of
instruments originally employed
for D-189. Extant instruments also well reflect contemporary
iconography showing the overwhelming predominance of the six course
mandora; and similarly with extant tablatures - though a very few do
contain some pieces for 8 or 9 course mandora (such as Univerzitna
Kniznica Bratislava Ms 1092
which contains galant/classical music c.1770 requiring a mandora
with
eight courses). Note that these mandoras basically had these few
additional courses on the same peghead (like earlier lutes) and did
not employ the much longer extensions as found in the theorbo,
archlute
or, for that matter, the arch/theorboed guitar known from the
seventeenth century onwards.
Historically, the upper five courses of the usual six course
mandora/callichon were tuned in precisely
the same intervals as those of the guitar. The mandora sixth course
was
commonly tuned a tone
below the fifth (as, of course, found in D-189), or a third or a
fourth
below it. Tablatures show that the additional basses of the rare 8/9
course instrument merely fill in the notes between the fifth course
and the sixth a third or a fourth below it and do not extend the
range
any further downwards.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------
3. ACCORDO GYTARRA ET MANDORA
The tablature system with five lines on f.48v. between the first
double
bar lines gives octave tuning
checks in the usual manner. It shows that the upper five courses of
the
gytarra and mandora were
tuned in the same intervals with an extra course indicated below
the
line for the usual six course
mandora of the period (the six course guitar not then being known).
The
telling example of the
Rondeau (C. Loschi), originally for a six course instrument but
later
arranged for just five courses
(Rondon 75), very well illustrates the differences required in
intabulating the same work for the six
course mandora and the five course gytarra.
The staff after this has numbers below for an instrument with seven
additional bass courses - but only
two intabulated pieces out of a total of 124 works have had these
numbers added. I therefore believe
that this section was added later - perhaps when a novel theorboed
guitar was acquired (again note
that the scribe couldn't be bothered with adding these new low
basses
all the way through piece 45).
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------
4. SIX COURSE GUITAR IN BOHEMIA, MORAVIA AND AUSTRIA IN THE
EIGHTEENTH
CENTURY
Six course guitars first appeared in Southern Spain in the 1760s
and
a
little later in Italy in a six string
form, but only appear in German speaking lands from the 1780s (the
earliest extant one being by
Michael Ignaz Stadlmann, Vienna 1787). In c.1810. the Viennese
guitarist Simon Molitor also tells us
that around 1790 the guitar entered Austria 'where earlier it had
been
very rarely seen' and that at the
same time a sixth string/course was added.
As an aside, Molitor also tells of meeting a mandora player in
Vienna
(perhaps Joseph Zincke?)
around 1800 (they were still around then!) who said that he now
used
single strings instead of
double courses since he found it easier to tune...........
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------
5. CONCLUSIONS
5.1. A multi-course theorboed mandora with twelve courses never
existed
and, indeed, even the rare mandoras with up to a maximum of three
basses are not known in the period covered by the dating of
D-189. Accordingly, the most likely, and reasonable,
identification
of the couple of works for an
instrument with seven extra basses is the arch/theorboed guitar.
5.2. The six course guitar is not known in the period covered by
this
collection (est. 1690 - 1720) and
thus could not have been the instrument employed for the pieces
requiring a sixth course.
5.3. The tuning chart 'Accordo Gytarra et Mandora' gives the octave
checks for tuning instruments
with up to six courses, and thus serves for the upper five courses
of
both the gytarra and the mandora
- but only the mandora for the sixth course .
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------
6. Finally, when I first came across this MS some years ago, I
wondered
if Gytarra (or Chytarra) might
be a colloquial Bohemian/Moravian synonym for the Mandora. But
there
was no independent
supporting evidence and, moreover, strongly against this
proposition
is
the precise wording of
'Accordo Gytarra et Mandora' (ie tuning of gytarra AND
mandora) which requires two clearly different instruments - but
both
having the same basic tuning for five courses. As mentioned
earlier,
if
it had
said ' Gytarra aliter Mandora' (or similar) things might be
different.......................
regards
Martyn
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------
PS Incidentally I don't know why the duet Boure (f. 69v) for
Mandora
1
and 2 does not employ the sixth course: perhaps the composer
preferred
this particular piece with these instruments this way or
maybe they didn't have two guitars available? The last is not as
daft
as it may seem: at this time the mandora was immensely popular in
this
part of the world with almost all known mandora makers
working in this area of Bohemia, Moravia, upper Austria and South
Bavaria (roughly bounded by
Wurzburg, Innsbruck, Linz and Prague) - see Kirsch. MS sources
with
music for mandora outnumbe
r those for guitar from this area. Also note Molitor's report.
Similarly, regarding f. 48r with the 'Fundamenta Gytarra', this
simply
contains common thoeretical information for beginners as frequently
found in tablature books from these lands. They generally (as
with D-189) cover the generic principles of notation (tablature
letters), time signatures, note values
and tablature flags, ornaments, etc. and, as in this case, apply to
all
the plucked instruments
represented in the following tablatures - here the mandora, gytarra,
and theorboed guitar. Obviously, a seperate 'Fundamenta' page is not
needed for each plucked instrument represented in the same MS!
The practical information overleaf ('Accordo Gytarra et Mandora')
gives
the more specific information
on tuning, etc.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------
PPS The dotted separation lines are an attempt to avoid Wayne's
robot
collapsing paragraphs etc in
general circulation - we'll see if it
works.....................................
MH
====================================================================
From: "mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk" <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
To: VihuelaList <vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Cc: Martyn Hodgson <hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
Sent: Wednesday, 31 January 2018, 20:41
Subject: CZ-Bm D 189 unpicked
Martyn â RE: CZ-Bm D 189 My Response to Your Message of 29th
January
I will try to to be concise and stick to the point. I have deleted
sections from Martyn's message which I think are irrelevant and
rearranged some of his comments to achieve a more logical appraisal
of
the manuscript.
1. General Background
The manuscript belonged to and was presumably copied by someone at
the
Benedictine Monastery in Rajhrad, a town in Brno-Country District in
Moravia. I have not been able to trace a detailed bibliographical
description of it and I have not been able to check RISM but even
entries in RISM are not always reliable. I have not seen the
manuscript
myself and I don't think that Martyn has either. A copy, however
good,
still leaves a lot of unanswered questions. The manuscript includes,
among other things, didactic material, arrangements of vocal and
instrumental pieces by Lully, other vocal music, a sonata for
trombone
and music for viola da gamba. Some of the headings and text are in
Latin, some in Czech or German. I don't know if anyone has
identified
any of the other pieces but it would be necessary to do this before
deciding on a possible date for the manuscript.
2. Date
Martyn's comment -
"1. DATE OF D-189
You stated that the MS could have been written "anytime in the
eighteenth century" - but with no evidence for this assertion. I
do,
of
course, understand why you favour such a wide range of dates since
it
may help give some credence to employing a six course guitar
(developed, in fact, only later in the eighteenth century) for all
the
plucked works in this collection".
My comment â
I have NEVER suggested throughout this discussion that either of the
tablature charts or any of the music in this manuscript are for 6-
course early classical guitar. I pointed this out in my private e-
mail
to Martyn but he has ignored this and most of the rest of what I
have
said. This is a clear indication that he has not read my messages
before replying to them.
Martyn's comment -
"However, others date the writing of this MS considerably earlier,
including:James Tyler - 'early 18th century';Gary Boye - 'beginning
of
the 18th century';Ernst Pohlmann - 'um 1700' (around 1700); Jaroslav
Pohanka (Principal editor of Musica Antiqua Bohemia) - 'vor 1700
geschrieben' (written before 1700)".
My comment -
Pohlman and Pohanska's writings out of date and not entirely
accurate.
Tyler and Gary Boye are probably just copying what these previous
writers have said.
Martyn's comment â
"My own dating (based on stylistic traits and the piece attributed
to
C. Loschi) is 1700 to 1720. Accordingly, to summarise, the best date
range estimate for compilation of this MS lies between 1690 and
1720".
My comment â
You cannot date manuscripts in this way. Losy died in 1721.
However,
there is no reason to suppose that the manuscript was copied during
his
lifetime. Music by Corbetta was still being copied fifty years after
his death. Likewise, Losy's music would still have been popular
twenty,
thirty or more years after his death. Stylistic traits are no guide
to
dating. As somebody said recently on the Lute List
"As a musicologist student, I learned that style criticism should be
avoided because it cannot be valid evidence".
There is nothing distinctively early 18th century about the music,
most
of which is quite trivial.
Perhaps, Dear Martyn, you should do a course in Musicology!
Ewa BieliÃ
ska-Galas, the most recent person to refer to the
manuscript,
says in her article only that it is 18th century. She refers to it
as a
manuscript of music for the mandora and has indicated in her table
that
both versions of the Losy pieces are for mandora.
3. The Tablature charts
f.48v Fundamenta Gytarra
In his message of 4th of January Martyn said
"folio 48 â¦..gives elementary instructions for the five course
guitar
'
Fundamenta Chytarra'".
I pointed out that the heading is actually Fundamenta "Gytarra".
This
is the only instrument mentioned in the heading. I think Martyn is
mistaken in claiming that these instructions are intended for a 5-
course guitar.
They are instructions on how to read tablature. The first segment
between the double bars shows the open courses of a SIX- course
instrument represented by letter "a". These are clearly labeled 1-
6
in descending order with the "a" for sixth open course placed below
the tablature stave in the last bar. This clearly refers to the
"Gytarra"; no other instrument is mentioned. This is followed by
segments illustrating the five stopped courses at the 1st-9th fret
represented by the letter b-k. There are also the signs for
ornaments,
time signatures and note values.
f.48v Accordo Gytarra et Mandora
Martyn's comment on this was â
"3. ACCORDO GYTARRA ET MANDORA
The tablature system with five lines on f.48v. between the first
double
bar lines gives octave tuning checks in the usual manner. It shows
that the upper five courses of the gytarra and mandora were tuned in
the same intervals with an extra course indicated below the line for
the usual six course mandora of the period (the six course guitar
not
then being known)". â¦.. for the six course mandora and the five
course
gytarra. The staff after this has numbers below for an instrument
with
seven additional bass courses - but only two intabulated pieces out
of
a total of 124 works have had these numbers added. I therefore
believe
that this section was added later - perhaps when a novel theorboed
guitar was acquired (again note that the scribe couldn't be bothered
with adding these new low basses all the way through piece 45)".
My comment â
I think Martyn is mistaken. It is clear from the chart on f.48r that
the "Gytarra" is a 6-course instrument. It may be synonymous with
the
6-
course mandora which Martyn says was common at the time. It is also
clear that the section between the first two double bar lines on f.
48v
is a tuning check for the 6-course "Gytarra" on f.48r; the last bar
shows that the open bass is tuned to the same note as the third
course.
The second section on the first stave shows the additional bass
courses
of the "Mandora" numbered 6-12 starting with G.
The Aria on the second and third staves is an example of how the low
basses are notated with figures below the stave. Without seeing the
manuscript itself it is not possible to tell whether any of this was
added at a later date but I don't think that it was because the
Minuet
which starts on the fourth stave continues on the next folio â f.
49r.
The copyist is unlikely to have left two staves blank before copying
the minuet.
I do think that the open basses may have been added to the piece on
f.
90r (I can't read the title) at a later date. They have only been
added
to the first part of the piece and seem to overlap in places with
the
letters on the tablature stave.
The material question is - "What do the terms "Gytarra" and
"Mandora"
refer to in this context?"
Martyn seems to think that as there are all these instruments in
museums identified today as "mandoras" any mention of a "mandora" in
any archival document must refer to an instrument of this kind.
It ain't necessarily so. There are often references in manuscripts
and
in literary texts to instruments, the identity of which is
uncertain
in
the absence of illustrations or more detailed information. What
people
called these things in the past may be different from the way we
classify surviving specimens today.
One example that springs to mind is Mrs Jordan's "lute" which is
apparently really a kind of "arch cittern".
It seems to me that these two instruments may belong to a very broad
genus of lute shaped instruments with added basses but their precise
identity is uncertain.
4. The Music
Martyn's comment â
"Firstly though, to summarise our respective positions: - as I
understand it from what you have written, your position is that the
vast majority (about 98%) of the some 124 works for plucked
instruments
in this MS are for a six course gytarra and that just three are for
a
mandora" (according to you a twelve course instrument with five
fingered courses and seven free basses - you stated that "The
mandora
has seven unstopped basses" );
- mine is that the 28 pieces notated with a sixth course are for
mandora and that the remainder requiring just five courses are
principally for gytarra â¦.."
My comment
Looking through and playing the music â which took a considerable
amount of time â a number of ideas occurred to me, some of which I
discarded as I went along. What I said in my final message to the
list
was
The pieces from f.48v-f.59v are for the "Gytarra"; those from f.60r-
f.
76r are for a 5-course "Mandora"; and those from f.76v-f.95r
numbered
1-
56 are probably for 5-course guitar.
Martyn said â
"PS Incidentally I don't know why the duet Boure (f. 69v) for
Mandora 1
and 2 does not employ the sixth course: perhaps the composer
preferred
this particular piece with these instruments this way or maybe they
didn't have two guitars available? "
This is disingenious. Martyn claimed that -
"Simply overlooked is that the majority of pieces after F. 67 are in
Keys wher e low G is at least as helpful as for the works on in the
following keys of G, F. Cand D - BUT the scribe writes the G at the
upper octave:"
"a distinctive feature of the guitar, but not not of the period
mandora, etc."
My comment
The material point is that this piece is clearly labeled as being
for
two "mandoras" and there are skips of a 7th in the bass line. This
is
unavoidable on a 5-course instrument in the key of D major and all
the
pieces with this feature are in D major. It is not a feature only of
the guitar. With this in mind it seems reasonable to assume that
the
5-
course pieces are for a 5-course "mandora" up to and including f.
76r.
The pieces which follow form a separate section.
Martyn's comments on the six-course guitar in Eastern Europe are
irrelevant as I have NEVER suggested that anything in the manuscript
refers to a six-course guitar.
5. Conclusions
Martyn's comment
"5.1. A multi-course theorboed mandora with twelve courses never
existed and, indeed, even the rare mandoras with up to a maximum of
three basses are not known in the period covered by the dating of D-
189. Accordingly, the most likely, and reasonable, identification of
the couple of works for an instrument with seven extra basses is the
arch/theorboed guitar".
My comment â
I think this is a very rash statement. The manuscript is undated. To
claim that the instrument with seven extra bases is an
arch/theorboed
guitar is foolhardy. References to the theorboed guitar are few and
far between (are there any in Eastern Europe sources?) and often
ambiguous. It is not clear in many instances (including the
Stradivarius patterns) whether instruments referred to as a chitarra
atiorbata are lute shaped or figure of eight shaped. There was an
interesting mention on the lute list of a "citara tiorbata" in a
piece
in P.P. Melli's Balletto del Ardito Gracioso (1616) which appears to
be a kind of cittern. One of the Stradivarius patterns is referred
to
as being for the "citara tiorbata".
Clearly there were small lutes with up to seven basses aka mandoras.
James Talbot's manuscript (GB:Och Ms.1187) dating from the end of
the
17th century includes a description of an instrument owned by John
Shore which Talbot refers to as "Mr Shore's abridgmt of Arch Lute".
This had six courses on the fingerboard, the lowest octave strung,
the
third, fourth and fifth double strung in unison and the first and
second, single strings, with seven single open basses descending
stepwise from the lowest course. Talbot supplies detailed
specifications for the instrument. The length of the strings on the
fingerboard is given as 48.3 cms. and that of the open basses as
108.0
cms. He indicates that the first course is tuned to c'' which is
compatible with the string length of 48.3 cms. The instrument had
nine frets. Donald Gill classifies this as an "arch-mandore". There
is
no reason why the copyist of CZ-Bm D 189 should not have owned an
instrument of this kind and called it a "mandora".
Martyn's comment â
"5.2. The six course guitar is not known in the period covered by
this
collection (est. 1690 - 1720) and thus could not have been the
instrument employed for the pieces requiring a sixth course".
My comment â
For the THIRD TIME - I have NEVER suggested that it was.
Martyn's comment -
"5.3. The tuning chart 'Accordo Gytarra et Mandora' gives the octave
checks for tuning instruments with up to six courses, and thus
serves
for the upper five courses of both the gytarra and the mandora - but
only the mandora for the sixth course".
My comment â
That is not their clearly stated purpose or what they actually
illustrate.
Finally, Dear Martyn â in my view it is ill-mannered of you to
persist
in copying your messages to the Baroque Lute List when it has caused
problems for other people. Nothing you have to say is so important
that
it needs to appear twice and if you were hoping that someone else
would
join the fray to back you up you must have realized by now that they
are not going to. Perhaps I should start copying my messages as
well â
I wonder what Wayne would think of that if he knew what was going
on.
As ever
Monica
--
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