The core maintainer has always been in control of the consensus
rules.
Satoshi came up with the rules and put them in there. Since then
any
changes to any part of the code go through the core maintainer. It
looks to me as if people are saying it somehow changed along the
way
because they don't want to hurt people's feeling, upset up, get
them to
quit, etc. Sure there are checks and balances and people don't
have to
use the main code base but if they change the consensus rules
they are
incompatible.
The notion that because people can download different rules and
run them
is interesting from a theoretical perspective but that is
constrained by
the network effect. I can say the US government is not the
"decider" of
laws because I can vote them out, recall them, challenge things in
court, or secede and start my own country. You can also say the
judge/jury in a criminal court case is not a "decider" because the
president can always issue a pardon. But those points are
generally not
useful in a practical sense.
The issue about the developers is the tremendous influence they
have to
veto any changes. I don't have veto power yet I have more
bitcoins than
garzik says he has. The whole Bitcoin software development
system is
subject to attack from just a couple of people who have this veto
power. With all the crying and moaning about centralization on this
list I would think that would be a concern.
Russ
On 6/28/2015 11:35 AM, Jorge Timón wrote:
> On Sun, Jun 28, 2015 at 3:13 PM, Milly Bitcoin
<mi...@bitcoins.info> <mailto:mi...@bitcoins.info> wrote:
>> I never said something was approved by garzik added something
after it was
>> opposed. What I said was a proposal was made and 4 people
commented on the
>> Github. He then tweeted there was near universal approval
before most
>> people even heard about the subject. It was not controversial
but i was
>> pointing out the arrogance of some of the developers. He
considers the
>> entire universe of Bitcoin stakeholders to be a very small
group of
>> insiders, not the entire universe of Bitcoin users. Another
thing I have
>> seen on Github for bitcoin.org <http://bitcoin.org> is how
some the maintainers change the rules
>> on the fly. Sometimes they say a proposal had no objections
so it is
>> approved. Other times they say a proposal has no support so
it is rejected.
> Ok, I misunderstood.
> Well, the fact is that the number of capable reviewers is
quite small.
> If more companies hired and trained more developers to become
bitcoin
> core developers that situation could change, but that's where
we are
> now.
>
>> You are also trying to say that the core developers actually
have little
>> influence and are not "deciders" because anyone can fork the
code. That has
>> already been discussed at length and such an argument is
faulty because
>> there is a constraint that your software is incompatible with
everyone else.
> Only if you change the consensus rules (which are, in fact, a
> relatively small part of the code).
> Mike mantains Bitcoin XT and that's fine, Peter Todd maintains
patches
> with the replace by fee policy, libbitcoin also changes many
> non-consensus things, there's code written in other languages...
> There's multiple counter-examples to your claim of that
argument being faulty.
> Seriously, forking the project is just one click. You should
try it
> out like at least 9627 other people have done.
> >From there, you can pay your own developers (if you don't
know how to
> code yourself) and maybe they're also fine being insulted by
you as
> part of the job.
> What you still can't do is unilaterally change the consensus
rules of
> a running p2p consensus system, because you cannot force the
current
> users to run any software they don't want to run.
>
>> The issue is that there is no way right now to change the
consensus rules
>> except to go through the core maintainer unless you get
everybody on the
>> network to switch to your fork. People who keep repeating
that the software
>> development is "decentralized because you fork the code"
without explaining
>> the constraints are just cultists.
> Please, stop the cultist crap. Maybe insulting people like
that is how
> you got people to call you a troll.
> But, yes, you are right: there's no known mechanism for safely
> deploying controversial changes to the consensus rules
>
>> The discussion has nothing to do with who has the position
now and I never
>> said he has "control over the consensus rules." The
maintainer has a very
>> large influence way beyond anyone else. As for your claim
that I want
>> someone hurt because I am explaining the process, that is
ridiculous. If
>> the Core maintainers did not have significant influence to
change the
>> consensus rules then everybody would not be spending all this
time lobbying
>> them to have them changed.
> Well, if you don't think he has control over the consensus
rules we're
> advancing.
> I think that was implied from some of your previous claims. He
is no
> "decider" on consensus changes.
> Insisting on it can indeed get him hurt, so I'm happy that you're
> taking that back (or clarifying that really wasn't your position).
> Influence is very relative and not only core devs have
"influence".
> Maybe Andreas Antonopolous has more "influence" than I have
because he
> is a more public figure?
> Well, that's fine I think. I don't see the point in discussing
who has
> how much influence.
>
>> The outside influences and stake of the developer is a
relevant topic. The
>> same types of things are discussed on this list all the time
in the context
>> of miners, users, merchants, and exchanges. Again, the
developers try to
>> place themselves on some kind of pedestal where they are the
protectors and
>> pure and everyone else (miners, users, merchants) are
abusers, spammers,
>> attackers, scammers, cheaters, etc. It is Garzik who
voluntarily made an
>> issue of how many bitcoins he holds and he made that issue in
the same place
>> where he announces many of the technical issues. It is very
relevant that
>> he has a minimal stake in Bitcoin holdings yet he goes around
making major
>> decisions about Bitcoin and trying to dictate who is allowed
to participate
>> in discussions. If a core developer has minimal stake in
Bitcoin yet has
>> major veto power over code change that is a problem.
> Please, don't generalize. I don't think I put myself in any
kind of pedestal.
> That is insulting to me and many others (you may not even know and
> you're insulting them).
> And I think my Bitcoin holdings are completely irrelevant when
judging
> my contributions to the software: either they're good or not,
and who
> I am or how many Bitcoins I have at any given time shouldn't
matter.
> Again, nobody forces you to use our software, as said there's
> alternatives (including forking the project right now).
>
>> You are correct that you cannot give power to any person over
the Internet
>> which is why some kind of process needs to be developed that
does not
>> involve trying to convince one person to make the changes or
a system that
>> depends on unwritten, ever-changing rules maintained by a
handful of people.
> Well, for now the process we have is seeking consensus, and
although
> our definition of "uncontroversial" is very vague, I think it
is quite
> obvious when a proposed change is not "uncontroversial" (like
in the
> block size debate).
> It seems to me that any other "formal process" would imply
> centralization in the decision making of the consensus rules
(and from
> there you only have to corrupt that centralized organization to
> destroy Bitcoin).
>
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