Hi, I hear what you're saying about your friend who couldn't find stuff too well. I used to laugh at blind folks using echo location. Now I'm a bit older, and don't care as much what people think of me, I cheerily exchange looking competent for feeling safer.
In my experience - both through people I know, and people I work with - the main difference between people who can mental map "well", and those who can "not so well", seems to be the level and complexities of physical activities they performed when younger. For adults, this seems to be more how bloody minded they are: Those who approach their new found blindness as a challenge tend to get out there fairly quickly, and take the knocks while they haven't had the chance to think through how awful things could be. Those who sit back and worry about it tend to have worried themselves into a frenzy by the time it becomes necessary to get up and actually do something. In my experience, it's that latter group who struggle. If any of you have kids, I beg you to not be like the parents I have to work with, who mollycoddle their kids. Be that parent who lets their kids climb trees, build fires, and run around with their mates. Show them how to use tools like knives and drills. Let them get cut, and burnt and gather blisters. Seriously, so many people tell me how amazing I am. I don't see it personally, I just think I had normal parents who weren't afraid to let me take the knocks, but it's a parenting style I see less and less these days. When I was younger, I used to play hide and seek with my sighted sister and her friends. The learning went both ways: I learnt that I couldn't just stand quietly in the centre of a room, and they learnt that they couldn't just stand in front of me and stay still. Mutual respect earnt and gained. If you want games, hide and seek has to be natures best way of teaching blind and sighted kids a whole multitude of stuff: How to move quietly, what materials are transparent, and which ones only show shadows, how much noise a still body makes, how big a space you can fit your body in. Sadly, I think in this modern world of liability, correct speaking, and buck-passing, it's far easier to shove kids into a corner and let them play a computer game than to invent something amazing. If you're looking for an amazing experience that doesn't involve spacial awareness, shut down your computer, get yourself a tambourine, and fill it with crap. Pass it round a circle without making a noise. Every time it goes around the circle, remove a piece of stuff from it... Make sure there's balls, and pens, and anything else that will roll inside it. That will teach you to hold stuff level. A few rounds of that, and you'll not be confused as to which way you're holding your cup of tea. Seriously, kids learn from play! It's our job as gamers to make sure as many of the next generation of blind folks as possible get the best input when it really counts, before they get old enough to realise their fine motor skills are shot because they always had the more delicate things done for them, they can't find anything because they were always guided, and they have their own deficiencies lodged in their brains because everyone said "Oh, you can't do that". There endeth today's sirman! :P Take care, Chris Norman On Fri, 31 Jul 2020 at 05:53, Christy S <christys1...@gmail.com> wrote: > Damien and others, > > > I know I'm behind on this. I tend to skip over a lot of posts depending > on subject, but a conversation or two over the last few days got me > thinking about this. > > > First thing's first. The reason the game you mentioned said 6:00 is that > many people refer to directions using the face of a clock. Not a digital > one that flashes numbers, but an analog clock that has an hour and > minute hand that goes around a circle. Without going into a lot of > detail that will probably just confuse you, no insult at all intended > there, saying an enemy is at 6:00 probably means behind you. > > > I wanted to touch on the more generalized concept of spatial awareness, > however. Many, though not all, audio games use spatial awareness as a > foundation of playing the game. It wasn't until more recently that I > realized this isn't always practical for some. In the past, the people I > had run into who had poor spatial concepts or skills also had other > cognitive issues and I suppose, without even realizing it, I lumped the > two together in my mind. > > > I'm one of those who have always had decent spatial awareness, or mental > mapping as Damien said. In fact, I used the term mental mapping before I > knew a more correct term. I've always thought the reason I could do this > so well had to do with having a little sight when I was younger, thus > helping my brain to develop decently in that area. But really, when I > map something in my head, it's more like picturing a miniature version > of the space as I understand it. For example, I can sit here on my bed > in the bedroom and picture the entire layout of this apartment, > including where furniture and other large items are. I can even picture > the basic layout of a house I lived in over 15 years ago, and using that > mentally plan how I could get from any one point to any second point, in > either place. > > > Anyway, I've recently been talking to someone I now consider a good > friend, and this person struggles a lot with any kind of spatial > awareness. Their general intelligence, though, is totally fine, with no > other cognitive difficulties that I'm aware of. Likewise, reading > Damien's message here, I don't see any hint of cognitive delays and that > just confirms to me that I need to very much rethink that subconscious > connection my mind has made. Unfortunately, this is common in the blind > community. If a blind person isn't out walking everywhere, taking public > transit all the time etc, they tend to be seen as either dumb or lazy. > If a person admits they can't figure out on their own how to get to a > place two blocks away, they're often met with shocked disapproval or > worse. I mentioned to this friend that the house I used to live in had a > very large, wide open kitchen as the center of the house and they just > groaned. In fact, a different friend who sadly has since passed who had > similar struggles and would get utterly disoriented in that kitchen. She > could be standing by the fridge, and no matter how many times we had > shown her before, could not figure out how to get to a bedroom that was > probably 10 or 15 feet away. Looking back now, my then roommate and I > could have handled that situation very differently and more gracefully. > We just could not understand why she wasn't getting it. > > > The fact is, for whatever reason, there are those who, in addition to or > because of blindness, literally don't have the mental ability to > understand spatial concepts. It's not that they don't want to, or that > they just haven't been taught right, but their brain quite literally > can't process that kind of information. I think there might be some > connection between that and never having sight, but it also seems to be > a lot more complicated than that with certain eye conditions playing a > part. The best parallel I can think of us for those of us who have no > memory of sight, having someone try to explain colors to us. We can > memorize certain things, red is hot for example, but our brains don't > have the ability to bring what that color looks like into our minds > because there's no concept of vision or varying colors to build on. > > > This sounds very similar to what you're dealing with Damien. I would > never discourage attempting to learn, and if you can find a way that > works for you, that is totally awesome. If you can't, though, please > don't think that it means you are stupid or any other negative thing. It > could simply be that your brain isn't wired to be able to process > spatial concepts for whatever reason, and you should stick with whatever > methods work for you. > > > For those of us who do have that kind of spatial awareness, I really > hope we can all be understanding and not wave off these types of > limitations as stupidity or laziness or anything of the sort. I'm > talking to myself here too. As for those that find these 3d or 2d audio > games overwhelming and confusing, I hope you can find others that work > for you. Side scrollers come to mind, as those generally only have > forward and backward, sometimes up and down. This entire thing has me > pondering ideas for emersive audio games with excellent storylines that > don't require the ability to navigate as a primary skill for gameplay. > > > Christy > > > > On 7/27/2020 1:15 PM, Damien Garwood wrote: > > Hi, > > This will be quite a long message, because I'm starting to realise > > just how complicated spatial awareness can actually be. > > This is a thing I've been struggling with for years. I only managed A > > Hero's Call because following a beacon is like playing a reflex game. > > It says north, you turn around until it says north. Even then though, > > someone had to tell me that. I have no real understanding as to what > > that means or where I'm going. In fact, during times when you can't > > rely on beacons to get you places (like the goblin campsites and so > > on), someone actually had to do that for me! > > As for Tank Commander, if it weren't for Raul's playthrough, I would > > have never beaten it. > > Same in the real world, I always struggled with mobility. When I > > learned a route it was a case of remembering a set of instructions. > > That's why I often call it the "Bop-it dance" or the "Robot's dance". > > Think about it...Walk 20, turn right, walk 10...Just a glorified > > algorithm. > > If someone tells me to try and do the route in reverse, I wouldn't > > have a clue. > > You tell me to turn right, and I can do it. You ask me what's to the > > left of me, or what direction are the stairs from my front door, I'd > > have no idea, without physically going there. When my mum used to tell > > me to get out of the car and walk round the back, I wouldn't know what > > direction that was, because once I'm out of the car my direction has > > changed. And then there's the big one. If cars are moving forwards > > then why do they pan left to right? Or, if I'm sat in a vehicle that's > > reversing, why does it feel like it's moving forwards? What am I told? > > Surprise surprise, it's to do with directions again. And they all have > > one thing in common - it's the direction your facing. > > I always thought that, although I could move in a given direction, I > > always struggled when I faced a different direction to what I'm used to. > > My mum disagrees, and puts it like this: I don't have any "mental > > mapping skills". Thinking about it, I guess I can say that's accurate. > > I never know where I am relative to other things, or where they are > > relative to me (Unless of course I can reach out and physically touch > > it). > > I guess that's why I wasn't taught other forms of navigation. compass > > directions are just a series of meaningless words to me. All I know is > > that the compass has something to do with the sun. > > And don't even get me started on the clockface...When I tried 3d > > Velocity and it told me there was an enemy at 06:00, I actually went > > looking in the manual for a way to check the gametime! Of course > > there's nothing in there, then someone corrected me and said, no, it's > > referencing direction, not time. As far as I know, I hit a button on > > my clock or computer and it tells me the time. What on earth has that > > got to do with directions? I guess the only thing I can think of is > > that they say the past is behind you and the future is in > > front...Headache tablets anyone? > > I've also seen things like turning to 90 or 160 (they just sound like > > arbitrary numbers to me). Eurofly deals with latitude longitude and > > altitude. There just seems to be so much to consider with space. > > I'd just say give me an x and a y coordinate. But then I've seen that > > in different ways (0 0 being bottom left in some cases, and top left > > in others, and then someone told me that could also refer to the > > centre under some circumstances as well). Also I've had disputes in > > the past as to whether the Y coordinate represents forwards and > > backwards, or up and down. I always thought z was up and down, but > > they'd argue that when you're talking 2d, y is up and down. But I > > thought if you're working with 2d, you're talking about something > > that's flat (unless of course you're playing BK3!) > > Then, as if that wasn't enough, even my certainty about up and down > > came into question a few months ago when I learned that the world was > > just a big ball. In that case, people on the other side of the ball > > would say that their up was our down...And then they told me the earth > > is spinning, so our directions are always changing anyway...Sheesh! > > Thank goodness we don't have that level of complexity in games! > > Honestly. Sometimes I think I ought to have a physics degree if I'm > > going to understand all this! And there was me thinking that spatial > > awareness was meant to be a basic skill. > > As it is, I'm determined to learn this. I've gone six or seven years > > without any mobility training now because I just can't get my head > > around it. Now I'm trying again, and I thought that if I can > > understand how these games work, maybe it will improve my mental > > mapping skills and thus my mobility training, and stop everyone > > getting impatient with me and telling me what an idiot or slow learner > > I am. > > Cheers, > > Damien. > > > > On 27/07/2020 04:08 pm, Luke Hewitt wrote: > >> I've found myself, that practicing has actually improved my ability > >> to navigate in games. > >> > >> When I started with shades of doom and gma tank commander, I was > >> having trouble, and it wasn't until I thought out the physical > >> spacial awareness test myself that I managed to get my head around > >> the idea, since my own comprehension of space is actually pretty crappy. > >> > >> > >> What I do do though, both in games and rl, is to use landmarks as > >> guides, sound sources, smells, and working out what direction I have > >> to go from such and such is often a good way around. > >> > >> > >> A hero's call I can't speak about as I've yet to get into that game, > >> but I know in shades of doom, using the sound sources of the > >> corridors and many of the tools already provided like coordinates and > >> the reminders of where I've gone before, helped considerably. > >> > >> > >> All the best, > >> > >> > >> Dark. > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Groups.io Links: You receive all messages sent to this group. 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