Keith, That is a form of lap joint and it certainly can be very strong. It is commonly used where two boards will meet at a corner, more often along the long edges. I use it often for quick joinery like shop cabinets.
Dale Leavens, Cochrane Ontario Canada [EMAIL PROTECTED] Skype DaleLeavens Come and meet Aurora, Nakita and Nanook at our polar bear habitat. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Keith Christian" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <blindhandyman@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Saturday, March 24, 2007 11:41 PM Subject: RE: [BlindHandyMan] Cutting some joints [Was:] cutting dove tails > Hi Dale, > > > I hope you are healing well. > > I do have a new Porter Cable router. My last router threw a bit my way > and I trashed it. Pretty scary. The shaft had a slight bend in it. My > new router is variable speed and feels much more comfortable than my old > one. It is not a plunge router but the shaft is straight! > > I also have a table saw, but I do not have a dato blade yet. It looks > like it may be the next purchase. But it will need to wait a while. > Let's just say I have been buying more than I can afford lately. > > > Thank you for your detailed description of joints and how they are made. > It really helped. I believe I have quite a few dove tail bits and I'll > give them a go soon. A friend has a dove tail jig that he said he would > like to show me how to use some time. > > > My brother would make a joint that was pretty strong but I do not know > what it is called. He would raise the blade on the table saw so it > would cut half way through the wood. Then he would turn the wood on its > side and cut the other direction. It would make a small square or > rectangular groove along the edge of the wood. He would do the same > thing on the other piece of wood. When the corners are joined, they > would fit flush on both sides and you would have a large gluing > surface. What is this joint called and when is it appropriate to use? > He seemed to use it a lot. > > Thanks again, > > Keith > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindhandyman@yahoogroups.com > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Dale Leavens > Sent: Friday, March 23, 2007 9:50 PM > To: blindhandyman@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [BlindHandyMan] Cutting some joints [Was:] cutting dove > tails > > > > Hello Keith, > > I will try to help you understand some of these joints and how you might > > create them. I assume if you have router bits that you also have a > router. I > wonder if you have a plunge router and what other tools you may have. > Some > joints like dados and rabbets can as easily be made with a table saw as > can > a finger or box joint with the right jig. > > You specified : > Dovetail > Blind Dovetail > Box Joint > Basic Dado > Lap Joint > Locked Rabbet Drawer Joint > > Dovetail > > A dove tail joint is when one end of a board meets at right angles with > the > end of another board such as when the side of a drawer meets the front > of a > drawer where there are tails or short pegs cut in the end of the side of > the > drawer. These pegs are wider at their ends and narrow as they approach > the > rest of the side board of the drawer. Between them then there are spaces > > which are wider and narrow as they approach the ends of the pegs. These > pegs > are called the tails and give their name as they look the shape of the > tail > of a pigeon or dove. > > Pins are cut in the edge of the drawer face to fit between the tails. If > > these pins are the full thickness of the face of the drawer then the > joint > is known as an open dove tail. This sort is often used on the corner of > a > cabinet where the contrasting end grain on both sides of the joint can > be > visually striking and of course the joint is very strong particularly in > one > direction. The number of gluing surfaces provide great sticking > capability, > a very strong joint to be sure. > > Blind Dovetail > > If the pins are not cut the full depth of the face of the drawer or > joining > piece so that the tails fit into pockets the joint is known as a blind > dove > tail. This too is a very strong joint, can be equally strong or even mor > > secure than the through dove tail but you won't see the tips of the > tails > out the front of the drawer. > > The bit you will use is known as a dove tail bit. You will recognize it > by > the shape, the shape of a dove tail. It is wider at the end of the > cutter > and tapers in toward the shaft. They come in a few sizes generally about > > half an inch across the end but there are a couple of common angles. The > > angle mostly is a question of taste. > > Most of the jigs, maybe all of the jigs also require that you instal a > collar in the base of your router. This is like a washer filling in the > hole > in the middle of the router base plate with a sleeve projecting down at > least a quarter of an inch below the plate through which you instal the > router bit. You follow the teeth of a comb with this collar which guides > the > bit in and out of the work. > > There are various jigs for guiding a router to cut dove tail joints the > least expensive and most durable and easily used by the blind in my > opinion > only properly cut blind dove tail joints but I don't have sufficient > experience to say for certain that the more sophisticated jigs can't be > used > efficiently by the blind. This is often a question of just what is meant > by > use. Doubtless there is a way to use them all just as there is a way to > fly > an microlite aeroplane from England to Australia with a pilot in the > back > seat to land you and guide you around runways and to fuel pumps and > watch > that you don't fly into the path of other aircraft. I hope to be able to > > investigate the more sophisticated jigs within the next several months > and > maybe then will be better able to comment. If anyone else has I would > love > to hear of it. > > The more sophisticated jigs will allow you to alter size and spacing of > the > tails, leaving gaps if necessary for specific features and all that. > > Box Joint > > A box joint or finger joint is similar to a dove tail except that the > pins > have straight edges and are of equal width and spacing and depth. They > fit > together much like interspacing your fingers. These are often used to > connect the edges of boxes. They do provide a load of glue surface but > don't > lock in quite the same way as a dove tail. They can nevertheless be very > > attractive and if they really need tight locking sometimes a hole will > be > bored at the junction of a pair of pins and a dowel glued and banged in > maybe even in both directions at different points to really lock the > corner > up solidly. > > A dove tail jig can be used to produce this joint using a half inch > straight > edge bit through a collar. If you have room you set adjoining boards > vertically offset by the width of a pin and cutting them together. > > You can also make a box joint jig to be used in conjunction with the > miter > gauge of a table saw or a router table appropriately sized for the pins > and > spaces you will want. If doing this on a router table you are limited by > the > size of cutters available. You may have more flexibility using a table > saw > with a dado set which can be nearly infinitely variable. > > Basic Dado > > I learned recently or maybe relearned that a dado is a flat bottomed > groove > running across the direction of the grain while the same thing running > with > the grain is called a groove. If you cut a flat bottomed groove say > across > the inside of a shelving unit then slide a shelf into that groove you > have > made a dado joint. These are often used to fit the rear of a drawer into > the > sides along with a number of other types. > > With a router you might get lucky and be able to select a straight edge > bit > exactly the width you need, if not then select a slightly smaller one > and > widen the dado by moving the cut a little. Depending on the depth you > need > to cut you may have to make the cut in deepening passes. > > In a router table you may be able to use the fence to guide your work > depending on the distance from the edge and assuming a parallel to edge > groove. You may be able to use one of those guide fences attached to the > > base of a free-hand router or you may prefer to clamp a batten or > straight > edge to guide the router. There are also several ways to make jigs for > this > purpose as well. > > A stopped dado is one where you plunge the router part way into the > distance > and maybe raise it before the end so as to hide the ends where the > mating > piece comes to the edge or where the mating piece is narrower as for > example > a shelf which does not come all the way to the front of a cabinet and > you > don't wish to show the dado. You will have to square up the ends with a > chisel or round over the edge of the inserted piece to make this sort > fit. > > This is similar to a sliding or locking dovetail only instead of using a > > straight bit in the router you use a dove tail bit to cut the flat > bottom > groove which will have walls which expand toward the bottom of the > groove. > You will then have to cut matching edges on the shelf and slide the > shelf > into the groove. This sort might be used to hold the front of a drawer > to > the walls or the rear of the drawer between the walls. Even without glue > > these joints can be wonderful but they need precise cutting and when > glued > the wood will break before the joint will fail. > > Using a table saw you would use a dado set to cut dados. Stopped or > blind > dados are a little more difficult to cut with a table saw but not > impossible, I have done it many times and I have even done it with a > hand-held circular saw by making several passes moving the saw about the > > width of the blade over with each pass. This usually wants a little > cleaning > up with a chisel when done. > > Lap Joint > > There are a couple of varieties of lap joint and probably they all > require > some mechanical fixing in addition to glue. A half lap joint is when you > cut > away half the thickness of the end of a board the length of the width of > a > board you will join it too for example and lay it over another cut half > way > through with the width of the original board so one is recessed into the > > other. Doesn't have to be half of course depending on how much > structural > strength you wish. This method is often used for building gates because > the > shoulders of the slot can support a board against it's cheeks and help > reduce racking off square.Nails or screws will usually have to be used > to > reinforce such a joint. Sometimes this joinery will be used for making > face > frames for cabinets or where boards will cross as in an 'X' formation > but > must preserve a flat surface. > > Ship lapping is where a rabbet is cut on the edges but on opposite faces > of > boards so that they overlap but still lay flat. > > A router with straight cutting bits can be used for these sorts of > joints > and a ship lap edge can certainly be cut with a straight edge bit and > guide > or fence in a table or with a special rabbet bit which has a pilot bit > which > is smaller in diameter than the cutter and which follows the edge of the > > board. The larger lap joints will require several passes with a router, > I > more usually cut them with a table saw or a circular saw plowing out > several > cuts and cleaning up with a chisel. > > Locked Rabbet Drawer Joint > > I used these for making drawers a lot many years ago when all I had was > a > table saw. You remove a large sort of rabbet across the inside face at > each > end of a drawer front but extend the floor deeper toward the center of > the > drawer front forming an under cut of the wall of the rabbet. this leaves > a > short tongue. On the inside very near the end of the side wall of the > drawer > you cut a dado the width of the tongue and the distance from the end of > the > drawer wall which is the thickness of the under cut. You then slip the > dado > over the tongue and glue it up with a brad or two to reinforce the > joint. > This dado though is fairly fragile remembering that it is thin and > across > end grain. > > There are a couple of router bits which can help you with this cut, > there is > a 'T' slot bit which cuts a wider end than the wall and of course thin > and > wide straight cutters. > > I hope all this is helpful in understanding the various joints of > interest. > > Dale Leavens, Cochrane Ontario Canada > [EMAIL PROTECTED] <mailto:DLeavens%40puc.net> net > Skype DaleLeavens > Come and meet Aurora, Nakita and Nanook at our polar bear habitat. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Keith Christian" <[EMAIL PROTECTED] > <mailto:kchristian%40surfside.net> .net> > To: <blindhandyman@ <mailto:blindhandyman%40yahoogroups.com> > yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Friday, March 23, 2007 5:00 PM > Subject: RE: [BlindHandyMan] cutting dove tails > >> Hello, >> >> I would be interested in learning how to make different kinds of > joints. >> Are there some basic jigs that help you create a variety of joints for >> making drawers, boxes, shelves, etc? >> >> I have a good selection of router bits. I just don't know what they > all >> do and what kinds of joints I can make with them. Many of the bits > have >> a bearing on the end, while many others do not. >> >> Below are some joints that I would like to learn more about. I'd like >> to know what they are used for, how they are made, and what jigs are >> available to help a blind guy make them. >> >> Dovetail >> Blind Dovetail >> Box Joint >> Basic Dado >> Lap Joint >> Locked Rabbet Drawer Joint >> >> Ray Boyce sent an article to the list that made me want to understand >> different types of joints and how to make them. Thanks, >> >> Keith >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: blindhandyman@ <mailto:blindhandyman%40yahoogroups.com> > yahoogroups.com >> [mailto:blindhandyman@ <mailto:blindhandyman%40yahoogroups.com> > yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Dale Leavens >> Sent: Friday, March 23, 2007 12:18 PM >> To: blindhandyman@ <mailto:blindhandyman%40yahoogroups.com> > yahoogroups.com >> Subject: Re: [BlindHandyMan] cutting dove tails >> >> >> >> Hi Lenny, >> >> I use a bench top jig. I am sorry I can't tell you the brand right off >> hand >> there are a few very similar, I think I have the manual up stairs so >> next >> time I stump up there I'll have a look for it. >> >> This is not the sort which allows through dove tails or adjustable > ones, >> I >> am not sure the blind can use those satisfactorily, when I hear Norm > use >> his >> on the New Yankee Workshop he speaks of registering his with a scale > and >> you >> need both a dove tail bit and a straight bit to use them. You will > know >> them >> because instructions are that you flip the comb over to cut the pins. > Be >> >> sure I don't know that we can't use those jigs but I haven't had one > in >> my >> hands to assess it. At over a hundred and fifty bucks I have been >> reluctant >> to buy one on spec. >> >> What I have then is a free-hand used jig. You mount it at the edge of > a >> work >> bench so that the wall of a drawer say can be fitted against the front >> edge >> and hang below the edge of the bench. There is a cam lock clamp >> arrangement >> with a spring return which you have to adjust to the thickness of the >> wall >> to clamp it vertically into place. You place the wall good side in >> against >> the face of the jig than slide it to one or other edge of this clamp >> depending on which wall you are cutting. There is a vertical stop to >> align >> the edge of the wall at each edge of the jig to help aline and get it >> vertical. >> >> There is a similar arrangement at the top of the jig. You slide the >> front or >> rear of the drawer horizontally under the top clamp and against a stop >> on >> one or other side of the top surface until the end comes against the >> wall >> already installed in the front clamp. Again it is front face down. You >> make >> your adjustments as necessary so that the top of the front edge is > flush >> >> with the inside face of the front member of the drawer. If both are > snug >> >> against the stops and the stops are accurately set the edges will be >> offset >> half an inch. >> >> There is a comb with slots at half inch intervals which lies over the >> junction of the side wall and front face boards. >> >> You instal a collar into the base plate of your router and your dove >> tail >> cutter then just gently follow the teeth of the comb with the collar > in >> the >> router. The cutter cuts out the space between the tails on the side > wall >> and >> the space between the pins on the back side of the front panel at the >> same >> time. >> >> You reverse the top, that is the front member and slide it against the >> opposite side stop and you place the other side member into the front >> clamp >> against the opposite side stop to make the dove tails for the other > side >> of >> the drawer and of course a similar thing for the rear. >> >> I use short bits of duct tape to mark sides near one end so I don't > get >> them >> mixed up. >> >> This sort of jig is only good for about 14 inches I think and I did >> recently >> have a project which wanted more so I changed to using a miter with >> biscuits. I would have preferred the dove tail just for showing off. >> >> There are a couple of other adjustments, you need to cut to a fixed >> distance >> and there is a fence for that and cutting a few test pieces, the depth >> of >> the cutter will determine how tight the joint will be, you don't want > it >> too >> tight. >> >> You might like a load of scrap to reduce any risk of tear-out along > the >> edges although this is the inside face of the side so mostly hidden. >> >> I haven't used my big Triton router for this and don't think I would >> like to >> but my little Porter Cable does work well. I would really like to get > my >> >> hands on the fancier jig, you can set different spacing which can be >> attractive or even practical where your joint isn't a multiple of half >> inches. >> >> Hope this is helpful, I will find out the make I just don't recall and > I >> am >> still very much limiting my trips up stairs for now. >> >> Dale Leavens, Cochrane Ontario Canada >> [EMAIL PROTECTED] <mailto:DLeavens%40puc.net> net >> Skype DaleLeavens >> Come and meet Aurora, Nakita and Nanook at our polar bear habitat. >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Lenny McHugh" <[EMAIL PROTECTED] <mailto:lmchugh%40verizon.net> >> net> >> To: "Handyman-Blind" <blindhandyman@ >> <mailto:blindhandyman%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com> >> Sent: Friday, March 23, 2007 10:20 AM >> Subject: [BlindHandyMan] cutting dove tails >> >>> Dale, >>> A while back you mentioned that you were cutting dove tails. I would >> like >>> to know what equipment that you are using? >>> Also does the jig require a free hand router or do you invert it on a >>> router table? >>> I have been toying with the idea for a while but so far hadn't really >> had >>> the need. >>> Lenny http://www.geocitie <http://www.geocitie > <http://www.geocities.com/lenny_mchugh/> s.com/lenny_mchugh/> >> s.com/lenny_mchugh/ >>> >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >>> >>> >>> >>> To listen to the show archives go to link >>> http://acbradio. <http://acbradio. > <http://acbradio.org/handyman.html> org/handyman.html> org/handyman.html >>> or >>> ftp://ftp.acbradio. >> <ftp://ftp.acbradio. > <ftp://ftp.acbradio.org/acbradio-archives/handyman/> > org/acbradio-archives/handyman/> >> org/acbradio-archives/handyman/ >>> >>> The Pod Cast address for the Blind Handy Man Show is. >>> http://www.acbradio >> <http://www.acbradio > <http://www.acbradio.org/news/xml/podcast.php?pgm=saturday> > .org/news/xml/podcast.php?pgm=saturday> >> .org/news/xml/podcast.php?pgm=saturday >>> >>> The Pod Cast address for the Cooking In The Dark Show is. >>> http://www.gcast. <http://www.gcast. > <http://www.gcast.com/u/cookingindark/main.xml> > com/u/cookingindark/main.xml> >> com/u/cookingindark/main.xml >>> >>> Visit The Blind Handy Man Files Page To Review Contributions From >> Various >>> List Members At The Following address: >>> http://www.jaws- <http://www.jaws- > <http://www.jaws-users.com/handyman/> users.com/handyman/> >> users.com/handyman/ >>> >>> Visit the new archives page at the following address >>> http://www.mail- >> <http://www.mail- > <http://www.mail-archive.com/blindhandyman@yahoogroups.com/> > archive.com/blindhandyman@yahoogroups.com/> >> archive.com/ <mailto:archive.com%2Fblindhandyman%40yahoogroups.com> > blindhandyman@yahoogroups.com/ >>> For a complete list of email commands pertaining to the Blind Handy >> Man >>> list just send a blank message to: >>> blindhandyman- <mailto:blindhandyman-help%40yahoogroups.com> >> [EMAIL PROTECTED] <mailto:help%40yahoogroups.com> com >>> Yahoo! Groups Links >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> No virus found in this incoming message. >>> Checked by AVG Free Edition. >>> Version: 7.1.413 / Virus Database: 268.18.17/730 - Release Date: >>> 22/03/2007 >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> >> >> >> To listen to the show archives go to link >> http://acbradio. <http://acbradio.org/handyman.html> org/handyman.html >> or >> ftp://ftp.acbradio. > <ftp://ftp.acbradio.org/acbradio-archives/handyman/> > org/acbradio-archives/handyman/ >> >> The Pod Cast address for the Blind Handy Man Show is. >> http://www.acbradio > <http://www.acbradio.org/news/xml/podcast.php?pgm=saturday> > .org/news/xml/podcast.php?pgm=saturday >> >> The Pod Cast address for the Cooking In The Dark Show is. >> http://www.gcast. <http://www.gcast.com/u/cookingindark/main.xml> > com/u/cookingindark/main.xml >> >> Visit The Blind Handy Man Files Page To Review Contributions From > Various >> List Members At The Following address: >> http://www.jaws- <http://www.jaws-users.com/handyman/> > users.com/handyman/ >> >> Visit the new archives page at the following address >> http://www.mail- > <http://www.mail-archive.com/blindhandyman@yahoogroups.com/> > archive.com/blindhandyman@yahoogroups.com/ >> For a complete list of email commands pertaining to the Blind Handy > Man >> list just send a blank message to: >> blindhandyman- <mailto:blindhandyman-help%40yahoogroups.com> > [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> Yahoo! Groups Links >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> No virus found in this incoming message. >> Checked by AVG Free Edition. >> Version: 7.1.413 / Virus Database: 268.18.17/730 - Release Date: >> 22/03/2007 >> >> > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > To listen to the show archives go to link > http://acbradio.org/handyman.html > or > ftp://ftp.acbradio.org/acbradio-archives/handyman/ > > The Pod Cast address for the Blind Handy Man Show is. > http://www.acbradio.org/news/xml/podcast.php?pgm=saturday > > The Pod Cast address for the Cooking In The Dark Show is. > http://www.gcast.com/u/cookingindark/main.xml > > Visit The Blind Handy Man Files Page To Review Contributions From Various > List Members At The Following address: > http://www.jaws-users.com/handyman/ > > Visit the new archives page at the following address > http://www.mail-archive.com/blindhandyman@yahoogroups.com/ > For a complete list of email commands pertaining to the Blind Handy Man > list just send a blank message to: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Yahoo! 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