Regarding the concern that tying this to 3P cookies will make it harder to
disable 3P cookies completely: have you considered making this a separate
UI toggle instead?
On Wednesday, November 19, 2025 at 12:07:48 PM UTC-5 Daniel Bratell wrote:
> We had a discussion about this in the API OWNERS meeting and I was asked
> to make my thoughts public.
>
> There are a couple of aspects to this:
>
> 1. This is trying to mitigate some negative effects of a security/privacy
> enhancing change (triple keyed cache). The negative effects are, as far as
> I can determine, in the form of reduced ad revenue ("web ecosystem")
> because some ad network scripts will have to be reloaded from servers.
>
> 2. There is a fundamental idea that a browser should treat every resource
> on the web equally (modulo security and some other exceptions). This is
> violating that idea.
>
> 3. The list of resources that will be allowed to bypass the third cache
> key was created through a reasonably impartial method. Still, because the
> web is what it is, that resulted in certain entities getting a lot of their
> resources on the list. If I recall correctly, 30% of the list was Google
> resources in one form or another.
>
> 4. Every resource on the list opens up the potential for the
> security/privacy issues that the triple keyed cache was meant to protect
> against. Is there a point where the list has undermined enough of the
> benefits that the whole triple keyed cache should be dropped instead?
>
> All of this, and more, has to be weighed against each other to get to a
> solution with an "ideal" balance. I currently do not know what that balance
> is.
>
> I do not like the look of certain aspects here, but on the other hand I do
> like the security/privacy improvements and it would be sad if those have to
> be reverted because some considered them too costly.
>
> This post does not really change anything, but just so that you know what
> is being voiced. And if someone has more to add, please do add your own
> information and thoughts. Especially if I have misunderstood or
> mischaracterized something. That is what these threads are for.
>
> /Daniel
> On 2025-11-09 16:46, Patrick Meenan wrote:
>
>
>
> On Sat, Nov 8, 2025 at 1:32 PM Yoav Weiss (@Shopify) <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>> I'm extremely supportive of this effort, with multiple hats on.
>>
>> I'd have loved if this wasn't restricted to users with 3P cookies
>> enabled, but one can imagine abuse where pervasive resource *patterns* are
>> used, but with unique hashes that are not deployed in the wild, and where
>> each such URL is used as a cross-origin bit of entropy.
>>
>
> Yep, there are 2 risks for explicit tracking (that are effectively moot
> when you can track directly anyway). Differing the content of some of the
> responses some of the time (maybe for a slightly different URL than the
> "current" version that still matches the pattern) and using a broad sample
> of not-current URLs across a bunch of origins as a fingerprint. We can make
> some of that harder but I couldn't think of any way to completely eliminate
> the risk.
>
>
>> On Sat, Nov 8, 2025 at 7:04 AM Patrick Meenan <[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> The list construction should already be completely objective. I changed
>>> the manual origin-owner validation to trust and require "cache-control:
>>> public" instead. The rest of the criteria
>>> <https://docs.google.com/document/d/1xaoF9iSOojrlPrHZaKIJMK4iRZKA3AD6pQvbSy4ueUQ/edit?tab=t.0>
>>>
>>> should be well-defined and objective. I'm not sure if they can be fully
>>> automated yet (though that might just be my pre-AI thinking).
>>>
>>> The main need for humans in the loop right now is to create the patterns
>>> so that they each represent a "single" resource that is stable over time
>>> with URL changes (version/hash) and distinguishing those stable files from
>>> random hash bundles that aren't stable from release to release. That's
>>> fairly easy for a human to do (and get right).
>>>
>>
>> This is something that origins that use compression dictionaries already
>> do by themselves - define the "match" pattern that covers the URL's
>> semantics. Can we somehow use that for automation where it exists?
>>
>
> We can use the match patterns for script and style destinations as an
> input when defining the patterns. If the resource URL matches the match
> pattern and the match pattern is reasonably long (not /app/*.js) then it's
> probably a good pattern (and could be validated across months of HTTP
> Archive logs). There are patterns where dictionaries aren't used as strict
> delta updates for the same file (i.e. a script with a lot of common code
> that portions of which might be in other scripts used on other pages) so I
> wouldn't want to use it blindly but it is a very strong possibility.
>
>
>>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, Nov 7, 2025 at 4:47 PM Rick Byers <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Thanks Pat. I am personally a big fan of things which increase
>>>> publisher ad revenue across the web broadly without hurting (or ideally
>>>> improving) the user experience, and this seems likely to do exactly that.
>>>> In particular I recall all the debate around stale-while-revalidate
>>>> <https://web.dev/articles/stale-while-revalidate> and am proud that we
>>>> pushed
>>>> <https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/g/blink-dev/c/rspPrQHfFkI/m/c5j3xJQRDAAJ?e=48417069>
>>>>
>>>> through it with urgency and confirmed it indeed increased publisher ad
>>>> revenue across the web
>>>> <https://web.dev/case-studies/ads-case-study-stale-while-revalidate>.
>>>>
>>>> Reading the Mozilla feedback carefully the point that resonates most
>>>> with me is the risk of "gatekeeping" and the potential to mitigate that by
>>>> establishing objective rules for inclusion. Is it plausible to imagine a
>>>> version of this where the list construction would be entirely objective?
>>>> What would the tradeoffs be?
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> Rick
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Oct 30, 2025 at 3:50 PM Patrick Meenan <[email protected]>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Reaching out to site owners was mostly for a sanity check that the
>>>>> resource is not expecting to be partitioned for some reason (even though
>>>>> the payloads are known to be identical). If it helps, we can replace the
>>>>> reach-out step with a requirement that the responses be "Cache-Control:
>>>>> public" (and hard-enforce it in the browser by not writing the resource
>>>>> to
>>>>> cache if it isn't). That is an explicit indicator that the resources are
>>>>> cacheable in shared upstream caches.
>>>>>
>>>>> I removed the 2 items from the design doc that were specifically
>>>>> targeted at direct fingerprinting since that's moot with the 3PC link (as
>>>>> well as the fingerprinting bits from the validation with resource
>>>>> owners).
>>>>>
>>>>> On the site-preferencing concern, it doesn't actually preference large
>>>>> sites but it does preference currently-popular third-party resources
>>>>> (most
>>>>> of which are provided by large corporations). The benefit is spread
>>>>> across
>>>>> all of the sites that they are embedded in (funnily enough, most large
>>>>> sites won't benefit because they don't tend to use third-parties).
>>>>>
>>>>> Determining the common resources at a local level exposes the same XS
>>>>> Leak issues as allowing all resources (i.e. your local map tiles will
>>>>> show
>>>>> up in multiple cache partitions because they all reference your current
>>>>> location but they can be used to identify your location since they are
>>>>> not
>>>>> globally common). Instead of using the HTTP Archive to collect the
>>>>> candidates, we could presumably build a centralized list based on
>>>>> aggregated common resources that are seen across cache partitions by each
>>>>> user but that feels like an awful lot of complexity for a very small
>>>>> number
>>>>> of resulting resources.
>>>>>
>>>>> On the test results, sorry, I thought I had included the experiment
>>>>> results in the I2S but it looks like I may not have.
>>>>>
>>>>> The test was specifically just with the patterns for the Google ads
>>>>> scripts because we aren't expecting this feature to impact the vitals for
>>>>> the main page/content since most of the pervasive resources are
>>>>> third-party
>>>>> content that is usually async already and not critical-path. It's
>>>>> possible
>>>>> some video or map embeds might trigger LCP in some cases but that's the
>>>>> exception more than the norm. This is more geared to making those
>>>>> supporting things work better while maintaining the user experience. Ads
>>>>> has the kind of instrumentation that we'd need to be able to get
>>>>> visibility
>>>>> into the success (or failure) of that assumption and to be able to
>>>>> measure
>>>>> small changes.
>>>>>
>>>>> The results were stat-sig positive but relatively small. The ad
>>>>> iframes displayed their content slightly faster and transmitted fewer
>>>>> bytes
>>>>> for each frame (very low single digit percentages).
>>>>>
>>>>> The guardrail metrics, including vitals) were all neutral which is
>>>>> what we were hoping for (improvement without a cost of increased
>>>>> contention).
>>>>>
>>>>> If you'd feel more comfortable with gathering more data, I wouldn't be
>>>>> opposed to running the full list at 1% to check the guardrail metrics
>>>>> again
>>>>> before fully launching. We won't necessarily expect to see positive
>>>>> movement to justify a launch since the resources are still async but we
>>>>> can
>>>>> validate that assumption with the full list at least (if that is the only
>>>>> remaining concern).
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, Oct 30, 2025 at 5:28 PM Rick Byers <[email protected]>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks Erik and Patrick, of course that makes sense. Sorry for the
>>>>>> naive question. My naive reading of the design doc suggested to me that
>>>>>> a
>>>>>> lot of the privacy mitigations were about preventing the cross-site
>>>>>> tracking risk. Could the design be simplified by removing some of those
>>>>>> mitigations? For example, the section about reaching out to the resource
>>>>>> owners, to what extent is that really necessary when all we're trying to
>>>>>> mitigate is XS leaks? Don't the popularity properties alone mitigate
>>>>>> that
>>>>>> sufficiently?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What can you share about the magnitude of the performance benefit in
>>>>>> practice in your experiments? In particular for LCP, since we know
>>>>>> <https://wpostats.com/> that correlates well with user engagement
>>>>>> (and against abandonment) and so presumably user value.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The concern about not wanting to further advantage more popular sites
>>>>>> over less popular ones resonates with me. Part of that argument seems to
>>>>>> apply broadly to the idea of any LRU cache (especially one with a reuse
>>>>>> bias which I believe ours has
>>>>>> <https://www.chromium.org/developers/design-documents/network-stack/disk-cache/#eviction>?).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But perhaps an important distinction here is that the benefits are
>>>>>> determined globally vs. on a user-by-user basis? But I think any
>>>>>> solution
>>>>>> that worked on a user-by-user basis would have the XS leak problem,
>>>>>> right?
>>>>>> Perhaps it's worth reflecting on our stance on using crowd-sourced data
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> try to improve the experience for all users while still being fair to
>>>>>> sites
>>>>>> broadly. In general I think this is something Chromium is much more open
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> (where it brings significant user benefit) than other engines. For
>>>>>> example,
>>>>>> our Media Engagement Index
>>>>>> <https://developer.chrome.com/blog/autoplay> system has some similar
>>>>>> properties in terms of using aggregate user behaviour to help decide
>>>>>> which
>>>>>> sites have the power to play audio on page load and which don't. I was
>>>>>> personally uncertain at the time if the complexity would prove to be
>>>>>> worth
>>>>>> the benefit, but now I'm quite convinced it is. Playing audio on load is
>>>>>> just something users and developers want in a few cases, but not most
>>>>>> cases. I wonder if perhaps cross-site caching is similar?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Rick
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Thu, Oct 30, 2025 at 9:09 AM Matt Menke <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Note that even with Vary: Origin, we still have to load the HTTP
>>>>>>> request headers from the disk cache to apply the vary header, which
>>>>>>> leaks
>>>>>>> timing information, so "Vary: Origin" is not a sufficient security
>>>>>>> mechanism to prevent that sort of cross-site attack.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Wednesday, October 29, 2025 at 5:08:42 PM UTC-4 Erik Anderson
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> My understanding was that there was believed to be a meaningful
>>>>>>>> security benefit with partitioning the cache. That’s because it would
>>>>>>>> limit
>>>>>>>> a party from being able to inferr that you’ve visited some other site
>>>>>>>> by
>>>>>>>> measuring a side effect tied to how quickly a resource loads. That
>>>>>>>> observation could potentially be made even if that specific adversary
>>>>>>>> doesn’t have any of their own content loaded on the other site.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Of course, if there is an entity with a resource loaded across both
>>>>>>>> sites with a 3p cookie *and* they’re willing to share that
>>>>>>>> info/collude, there’s not much benefit. And even when partitioned, if
>>>>>>>> 3p
>>>>>>>> cookies are enabled, there are potentially measurable side effects
>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>> differ based on if the resource request had some specific state in a
>>>>>>>> 3p
>>>>>>>> cookie.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Does that incremental security benefit of partitioning the cache
>>>>>>>> justify the performance costs when 3p cookies are still enabled? I’m
>>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>> sure.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Even if partitioning was eliminated, a site could protect
>>>>>>>> themselves a bit by specifying Vary: Origin, but that probably
>>>>>>>> doesn’t sufficiently cover iframe scenarios (nor would I expect most
>>>>>>>> sites
>>>>>>>> to hold it right).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> *From:* Rick Byers <[email protected]>
>>>>>>>> *Sent:* Wednesday, October 29, 2025 11:56 AM
>>>>>>>> *To:* Patrick Meenan <[email protected]>
>>>>>>>> *Cc:* Mike Taylor <[email protected]>; blink-dev <
>>>>>>>> [email protected]>
>>>>>>>> *Subject:* [EXTERNAL] Re: [blink-dev] Intent to ship: Cache
>>>>>>>> sharing for extremely-pervasive resources
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If this is enabled only when 3PCs are enabled, then what are the
>>>>>>>> tradeoffs of going through all this complexity and governance vs. just
>>>>>>>> broadly coupling HTTP cache keying behavior to 3PC status in some way?
>>>>>>>> What
>>>>>>>> can a tracker credibly do with a single-keyed HTTP cache that they
>>>>>>>> cannot
>>>>>>>> do with 3PCs? Are there also concerns about accidental cross-site
>>>>>>>> resource
>>>>>>>> sharing which could be mitigated more simply by other means, eg. by
>>>>>>>> scoping
>>>>>>>> to just to ETag-based caching?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I remember the controversy and some real evidence of harm to users
>>>>>>>> and businesses in 2020 when we partitioned the HTTP cache, but I was
>>>>>>>> convinced that we had to accept that harm in order to credibly achieve
>>>>>>>> 3PCD. At the time I was personally a fan of a proposal like this (even
>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>> users without 3PCs) in order to mitigate the harm. But now it seems to
>>>>>>>> me
>>>>>>>> that if we're going to start talking about poking holes in that
>>>>>>>> decision,
>>>>>>>> perhaps we should be doing a larger review of the options in that
>>>>>>>> space
>>>>>>>> with the knowledge that most Chrome users are likely to continue to
>>>>>>>> have 3PCs enabled. WDYT?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Rick
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Mon, Oct 27, 2025 at 10:27 AM Patrick Meenan <
>>>>>>>> [email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I don't believe the security/privacy protections actually rely on
>>>>>>>> the assertions (and it's unlikely those would be public). It's more
>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>> awareness and to make sure they don't accidentally break something
>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>> their app if they were relying on the responses being partitioned by
>>>>>>>> site.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> As far as query params go, the browser code already only filters
>>>>>>>> for requests with no query params so any that do rely on query params
>>>>>>>> won't
>>>>>>>> get included anyway.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The same goes for cookies. Since the feature is only enabled when
>>>>>>>> third-party cookies are enabled, adding cookies to these responses or
>>>>>>>> putting unique content in them won't actually pierce any new
>>>>>>>> boundaries but
>>>>>>>> it goes against the intent of only using it for public/static
>>>>>>>> resources and
>>>>>>>> they'd lose the benefit of the shared cache when it gets updated. Same
>>>>>>>> goes
>>>>>>>> for the fingerprinting risks if the pattern was abused.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Mon, Oct 27, 2025 at 9:39 AM Mike Taylor <[email protected]>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 10/22/25 5:48 p.m., Patrick Meenan wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The candidate list goes down to 20k occurrences in order to catch
>>>>>>>> resources that were updated mid-crawl and may have multiple entries
>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>> different hashes that add up to 100k+ occurrences. In the candidate
>>>>>>>> list,
>>>>>>>> without any filtering, the 100k cutoff is around 600, I'd estimate
>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>> well less than 25% of the candidates make it through the filtering for
>>>>>>>> stable pattern, correct resource type and reliable pattern. First
>>>>>>>> release
>>>>>>>> will likely be 100-200 and I don't expect it will ever grow above 500.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Thanks - I see the living document has been updated to mention 500
>>>>>>>> as a ceiling.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> As far as cadence goes, I expect there will be a lot of activity
>>>>>>>> for the next few releases as individual patterns are coordinated with
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> origin owners but then it will settle down to a much more bursty
>>>>>>>> pattern of
>>>>>>>> updates every few Chrome releases (likely linked with an origin
>>>>>>>> changing
>>>>>>>> their application and adding more/different resources). And yes, it is
>>>>>>>> manual.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> As far as the process goes, resource owners need to actively assert
>>>>>>>> that their resource is appropriate for the single-keyed cache and that
>>>>>>>> they
>>>>>>>> would like it included (usually in response to active outreach from us
>>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>>> we have the external-facing list for owner-initiated contact as well).
>>>>>>>> The
>>>>>>>> design doc has the documentation for what it means to be appropriate
>>>>>>>> (and
>>>>>>>> the doc will be moved to a readme page in the repository next to the
>>>>>>>> actual
>>>>>>>> list so it's not a hard-to-find Google doc):
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Will there be any kind of public record of this assertion? What
>>>>>>>> happens if a site starts using query params or sending cookies? Does
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> person in charge of manual list curation discover that in the next
>>>>>>>> release?
>>>>>>>> Does that require a new release (I don't know if this lives in
>>>>>>>> component
>>>>>>>> updater, or in the binary itself)?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> *5. Require resource owner opt-in*
>>>>>>>> For each URL to be included, reach out to the team/company
>>>>>>>> responsible for the resource to validate the URL pattern and get
>>>>>>>> assurances
>>>>>>>> that the pattern will always serve the same content to all sites and
>>>>>>>> not be
>>>>>>>> abused for tracking (by using unique URLs within the pattern mask as a
>>>>>>>> bit-mask for fingerprinting). They will also need to validate that the
>>>>>>>> URLs
>>>>>>>> covered by the pattern will not rely on being able to set cookies over
>>>>>>>> HTTP
>>>>>>>> using a Set-Cookie HTTP response header because they will not be
>>>>>>>> re-applied across cache boundaries (the set-cookie is not cached with
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> resource).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Wed, Oct 22, 2025 at 5:31 PM Mike Taylor <[email protected]>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 10/18/25 8:34 a.m., Patrick Meenan wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Sorry, I missed a step in making the candidate resource list
>>>>>>>> public. I have moved it to my chromium account and made it public
>>>>>>>> here
>>>>>>>> <https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1TgWhdeqKbGm6hLM9WqnnXLn-iiO4Y9HTjDXjVO2aBqI/edit?usp=sharing>.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Not everything in that list meets all of the criteria - it's just
>>>>>>>> the first step in the manual curation (same URL served the same
>>>>>>>> content
>>>>>>>> across > 20k sites in the HTTP Archive dataset).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The manual steps frome there for meeting the criteria are basically:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> - Cull the list for scripts, stylesheets and compression
>>>>>>>> dictionaries.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> - Remove any URLs that use query parameters.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> - Exclude any responses that set cookies.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> - Identify URLs that are not manually versioned by site embedders
>>>>>>>> (i.e. the embedded resource can not get stale). This is either
>>>>>>>> in-place
>>>>>>>> updating resources or automatically versioned resources.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> - Only include URLs that can reliably target a single resource by
>>>>>>>> pattern (i.e. ..../<hash>-common.js but not ..../<hash>.js)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> - Get confirmation from the resource owner that the given URL
>>>>>>>> Pattern is and will continue to be appropriate for the single-keyed
>>>>>>>> cache
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> A few questions on list curation:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Can you clarify how big the list will be? The privacy review at
>>>>>>>> https://chromestatus.com/feature/5202380930678784?gate=5174931459145728
>>>>>>>> mentions
>>>>>>>> ~500, while the design doc mentions 1000. I see the candidate resource
>>>>>>>> list
>>>>>>>> starts at ~5000, then presumably manual curation begins to get to one
>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>> those numbers.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> What is the expected list curation/update cadence? Is it actually
>>>>>>>> manual?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Is there any recourse process for owners of resources that don't
>>>>>>>> want to be included? Do we have documentation on what it mean to be
>>>>>>>> appropriate for the single-keyed cache?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> thanks,
>>>>>>>> Mike
>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/d/msgid/blink-dev/CAPq58w6UFSnxxzhGKBnY1BJKiZZeH7BUm7PmcjQm_%2BLjGyrtYg%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
>>>>>>>> .
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>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/d/msgid/blink-dev/CAFUtAY9Nffq00r-xbiu2BO00y%2B_2knAi-zheMs9hrE-dB%2BTZ3w%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
>>>>>>>> .
>>>>>>>>
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