We are talking about different things then.
The "fast lane" I'm talking about is where ISPs want companies to pay
them for
bandwidth (in addition to the companies paying their own ISP for
bandwidth and
in addition to their users paying them for bandwidth)
As for your contention that an ideal Internet will have a buffer size
of <1
packet. That will work, but that will not fully utilize the network,
because
there will be jitter in the senders and some packet generation will be
delayed,
leaving the network with nothing to send in that timeslot.
If the network is not fully utilized, then fq_codel isn't needed, just
send
packets as they arrive. It's only as a particular link approaches full
utilization that queues will build up and deciding what to do becomes
significant (and fq_codel and similar will matter)
As for your thought of having an end-to-end feedback loop, the problem
with that
is that it will only work if the path between them is stable and not
interfered
with by other flows. In the Internet as we have it today, neither are
true. The
packets for your connection may travel over different paths, and
congestion
happens on a link-by-link basis with the combined packets of many
connections,
not end-to-end based on a single connection.
David Lang
On Thu, 15 May 2014, dpr...@reed.com wrote:
I don't think that at all. I suspect you know that. But if I confused
you, let
me assure you that my view of the proper operating point of the
Internet as a
whole is that the expected buffer queue on any switch anywhere in the
Internet
is < 1 datagram.
fq_codel is a good start, but it still requires letting buffer
queueing
increase. However, mathematically, one need not have the queues
build up to
sustain the control loop that fq_codel creates.
I conjecture that one can create an equally effective congestion
control
mechanism as fq_codel without any standing queues being allowed to
build up.
(Someone should try the exercise of trying to prove that an optimal
end-to-end
feedback control system requires queueing delay to be imposed. I've
tried and
it's led me to the conjecture that one can always replace a standing
queue
with a finite memory of past activities - and if one does, the lack
of a
standing queue means that the algorithm is better than any that end
up with a
standing queue).
fq_codel could be redesigned into a queue-free fq_codel.
On Thursday, May 15, 2014 7:46pm, "David Lang" <da...@lang.hm> said:
If you think "fast lanes" will actually increase performance for any
traffic,
you are dreaming.
the people looking for "fast lanes" are't trying to get traffic
through any
faster, they are looking to charge more for the traffic they are
already
passing.
David Lang
On Thu, 15 May 2014, dpr...@reed.com wrote:
Well done. I'm optimistic for deployment everywhere, except
CMTS's, the LTE
and HSPA+ access networks, and all corporate firewall and intranet
gear.
The solution du jour is to leave bufferbloat in place, while using
the real
fads: prioritization (diffserv once we have the "fast lanes" fully
legal) and
"software defined networking" appliances that use DPI for packet
routing and
traffic management.
Fixing buffer bloat allows the edge- and enterprise- networks to
be more
efficient, whereas not fixing it lets the edge networks move users
up to more and
more expensive "plans" due to frustration and to sell much more gear
into
Enterprises because they are easy marks for complex gadgets.
But maybe a few engineers who operate and design gear for such
networks will
overcome the incredible business biases against fixing this.
That's why all the efforts you guys have put forth are immensely
worth it. I
think this is one of the best innovations in recent years (Bram
Cohen's original
BitTorrent is another, for fully decentralizing data delivery for
the very first
time in a brilliant way.) I will certainly push everywhere I can to
see fq_codel
deployed.
If there were a prize for brilliant projects, this would be top on
my list.
On Wednesday, May 14, 2014 9:25pm, "Dave Taht"
<dave.t...@gmail.com>
said:
On Wed, May 14, 2014 at 3:32 PM, Kathleen Nichols
<nich...@pollere.com>
wrote:
Thanks, Rich.
And to show you what an amazing bit of work that first fq_codel
was,
I have
on my calendar that I first "exposed" CoDel to a small group in
a
meeting room
and on the phone at ISC on April 24.
And we had all sorts of trouble with the phone, (eric didn't hear
much) and we then spent hours and hours afterwards discussing
wifi
instead of codel... it was too much to take in...
me, I'd started jumping up and down in excitement about 20
minutes
into kathies preso...
May 3rd, 2012 was the last 24 hr coding stint I think I'll ever
have.
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/pipermail/codel/2012-May/000023.html
Ahh, the good ole days, when bufferbloat was first solved and we
all
thought the internet would speed up overnight, and we were going
to be
rock stars, invited to all the best parties, acquire fame and
fortune,
and be awarded medals and given awards. Re-reading all this
brought
back memories.... (heck, there's still a couple good ideas in
that
thread left unimplemented)
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/pipermail/codel/2012-May/thread.html
It looks by may 5th we were getting in shape, and then there were
a
few other issues along the way with the control law and so on...
and
eric rewrote the whole thing and made it oodles faster and then
as
best as I recall came up with fq_codel on saturday may 5th(?) -
Ah, I haven't had so much fun in in years. My life since then
seems
like an endless string of meetings, politics, and bugfixing.
The code went from sim/paper, to code, to testing, to mainline
linux
in another week. I wish more research went like that!
commit 76e3cc126bb223013a6b9a0e2a51238d1ef2e409
Author: Eric Dumazet <eduma...@google.com>
Date: Thu May 10 07:51:25 2012 +0000
codel: Controlled Delay AQM
Now, as I recall the story, eric came up with fq_codel on a
saturday
afternoon, so I guess that was may 5th - cinco de mayo!
And that too, landed in mainline...
commit 4b549a2ef4bef9965d97cbd992ba67930cd3e0fe
Author: Eric Dumazet <eduma...@google.com>
Date: Fri May 11 09:30:50 2012 +0000
fq_codel: Fair Queue Codel AQM
let's not forget tom herbert & BQL
commit 75957ba36c05b979701e9ec64b37819adc12f830
Author: Tom Herbert <therb...@google.com>
Date: Mon Nov 28 16:32:35 2011 +0000
dql: Dynamic queue limits
Implementation of dynamic queue limits (dql). This is a
libary
which
allows a queue limit to be dynamically managed. The goal of
dql is
to set the queue limit, number of objects to the queue, to be
minimized
without allowing the queue to be starved.
It was really amazing to me to watch
something Van and I had been discussing (okay, arguing) about
privately for
6 months and I'd been tinkering with be turned into real code
on
real
networks.
Jim Gettys is an incredible (and constructive) nagger, Eric
Dumazet
and
amazing
coder, and the entire open source community a really nifty
group of
folks.
Maybe someday we will actually update the first article with
some of
the
stuff
we got into the last internet draft....
be the change,
Kathie
On 5/14/14 2:01 PM, Rich Brown wrote:
Folks,
I just noticed that the announcement for the first testable
implementation of fq_codel was two days ago today - 14 May
2012.
Build 3.3.6-2 was the first to include working fq_codel.
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/pipermail/cerowrt-devel/2012-May/000233.html
Two years later, we see fq_codel being adopted lots of
places.
As
more and more people/organizations come to understand the
problem,
and how straightforward the solution can be, we're beginning
to
win
the battle to have a good Internet experience everywhere.
Thanks to Dave, Eric, Kathie, Van, and all the members of this
list
for their perseverance, testing, comments, and patience.
Congratulations!
Best regards,
Rich _______________________________________________ Bloat
mailing
list Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat
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--
Dave Täht
NSFW:
https://w2.eff.org/Censorship/Internet_censorship_bills/russell_0296_indecent.article
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