I don't know.
From my personal experience, I feel like the "expert" wearing ties
watch the speed meter and the needle moving across the red bar.
We just need to be sure about the colors: when the latency goes into the
crazy region
the needle has to cross a RED bar! GREEN is good, RED is bad (exceptions
apply in case of daltonism).
Maybe I'm oversimplifying... but not that much...
If your solution is to educate people with ties on Internet congestion
control I feel bad...
Luca
On 03/20/2015 02:31 PM, David P. Reed wrote:
The mystery in most users' minds is that ping at a time when there is
no load does tell them anything at all about why the network
connection will such when their kid is uploading to youtube.
So giving them ping time is meaningless.
I think most network engineers think ping time is a useful measure of
a badly bufferbloated system. It is not.
The only measure is ping time under maximum load of raw packets.
And that requires a way to test maximum load rtt.
There is no problem with that ... other than that to understand why
and how that is relevant you have to understand Internet congestion
control.
Having had to testify before CRTC about this, I learned that most
access providers (the Canadian ones) claim that such measurements are
never made as a measure of quality, and that you can calculate
expected latency by using Little's lemma from average throughput. And
that dropped packets are the right measure of quality of service.
Ookla ping time is useless in a context where even the "experts"
wearing ties from the top grossing Internet firms are so confused. And
maybe deliberately misleading on purpose... they had to be forced to
provide any data they had about congestion in their networks by a
ruling during the proceeding and then responded that they had no data
- they never measured queueing delay and disputed that it mattered.
The proper measure of congestion was throughput.
I kid you not.
So Ookla ping time is useless against such public ignorance.
That's completely wrong for
On Mar 20, 2015, MUSCARIELLO Luca IMT/OLN
<luca.muscarie...@orange.com> wrote:
I agree. Having that ping included in Ookla would help a lot more
Luca
On 03/20/2015 12:18 AM, Greg White wrote:
Netalyzr is great for network geeks, hardly consumer-friendly,
and even so
the "network buffer measurements" part is buried in 150 other
statistics.
Why couldn't Ookla* add a simultaneous "ping" test to their
throughput
test? When was the last time someone leaned on them?
*I realize not everyone likes the Ookla tool, but it is
popular and about
as "sexy" as you are going to get with a network performance tool.
-Greg
On 3/19/15, 2:29 PM, "dpr...@reed.com" <dpr...@reed.com> wrote:
I do think engineers operating networks get it, and that
Comcast's
engineers really get it, as I clarified in my followup note.
The issue is indeed prioritization of investment,
engineering resources
and management attention. The teams at Comcast in the
engineering side
have been the leaders in "bufferbloat minimizing" work,
and I think they
should get more recognition for that.
I disagree a little bit about not having a test that shows
the issue, and
the value the test would have in demonstrating the issue
to users.
Netalyzer has been doing an amazing job on this since
before the
bufferbloat term was invented. Every time I've talked
about this issue
I've suggested running Netalyzer, so I have a personal set
of comments
from people all over the world who run Netalyzer on their
home networks,
on hotel networks, etc.
When I have brought up these measurements from Netalyzr
(which are not
aimed at showing the problem as users experience) I observe an
interesting reaction from many industry insiders: the
results are not
"sexy enough for stupid users" and also "no one will care".
I think the reaction characterizes the problem correctly -
but the second
part is the most serious objection. People don't need a
measurement
tool, they need to know that this is why their home
network sucks
sometimes.
On Thursday, March 19, 2015 3:58pm, "Livingood, Jason"
<jason_living...@cable.comcast.com> said:
On 3/19/15, 1:11 PM, "Dave Taht" <dave.t...@gmail.com>
wrote:
On Thu, Mar 19, 2015 at 6:53 AM, <dpr...@reed.com>
wrote:
How many years has it been since Comcast said
they were going to fix
bufferbloat in their network within a year?
I¹m not sure anyone ever said it¹d take a year. If
someone did (even if
it
was me) then it was in the days when the problem
appeared less
complicated
than it is and I apologize for that. Let¹s face it -
the problem is
complex and the software that has to be fixed is
everywhere. As I said
about IPv6: if it were easy, it¹d be done by now. ;-)
It's almost as if the cable companies don't
want OTT video or
simultaneous FTP and interactive gaming to
work. Of course not. They'd
never do that.
Sorry, but that seems a bit unfair. It flies in the
face of what we have
done and are doing. We¹ve underwritten some of Dave¹s
work, we got
CableLabs to underwrite AQM work, and I personally
pushed like heck to
get
AQM built into the default D3.1 spec (had CTO-level
awareness & support,
and was due to Greg White¹s work at CableLabs). We are
starting to field
test D3.1 gear now, by the way. We made some bad bets
too, such as
trying
to underwrite an OpenWRT-related program with ISC, but
not every tactic
will always be a winner.
As for existing D3.0 gear, it¹s not for lack of
trying. Has any DOCSIS
network of any scale in the world solved it? If so, I
have something to
use to learn from and apply here at Comcast - and I¹d
**love** an
introduction to someone who has so I can get this info.
But usually there are rational explanations for why
something is still
not
done. One of them is that the at-scale operational
issues are more
complicated that some people realize. And there is
always a case of
prioritization - meaning things like running out of
IPv4 addresses and
not
having service trump more subtle things like buffer
bloat (and the
effort
to get vendors to support v6 has been tremendous).
I do understand there are strong forces against
us, especially in the
USA.
I¹m not sure there are any forces against this issue.
It¹s more a
question
of awareness - it is not apparent it is more urgent
than other work in
everyone¹s backlog. For example, the number of ISP
customers even aware
of
buffer bloat is probably 0.001%; if customers aren¹t
asking for it, the
product managers have a tough time arguing to
prioritize buffer bloat
work
over new feature X or Y.
One suggestion I have made to increase awareness is
that there be a
nice,
web-based, consumer-friendly latency under load /
bloat test that you
could get people to run as they do speed tests today.
(If someone thinks
they can actually deliver this, I will try to fund it
- ping me
off-list.)
I also think a better job can be done explaining
buffer bloat - it¹s
hard
to make an Œelevator pitch¹ about it.
It reminds me a bit of IPv6 several years ago. Rather
than saying in
essence Œyou operators are dummies¹ for not already
fixing this, maybe
assume the engineers all Œget it¹ and what to do it.
Because we really
do
get it and want to do something about it. Then ask
those operators what
they need to convince their leadership and their
suppliers and product
managers and whomever else that it needs to be
resourced more
effectively
(see above for example).
We¹re at least part of the way there in DOCSIS
networks. It is in D3.1
by
default, and we¹re starting trials now. And probably
within 18-24 months
we won¹t buy any DOCSIS CPE that is not 3.1.
The question for me is how and when to address it in
DOCSIS 3.0.
- Jason
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- the evolution of emailing.
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