Curious to how LBT can be solved at the PHY level and if the potential solution sets preserve the end to end principle.
Bob On Sun, Aug 26, 2018 at 5:26 AM David P. Reed <dpr...@deepplum.com> wrote: > Baran: I got the year wrong. I remember it as 1993, but it was 1994 CNGN > speech he made, which is resurrected here: > https://www.eff.org/pages/false-scarcity-baran-cngn-94 > > Paul was educated in EE, as was I. So radio made sense to him. Unlike kids > brought up on the idea that bits are and must be physically discrete > spatial and temporal mechanical things. > > You know, one can have 1/10 of a bit of information, and store it in 1/10 > of a bit of storage. Or transmit a symbol that passes through local noise > and comes out the other side uncorrupted. > > But kids trained in fancy CS depts. assume that bits require clear, empty, > noiseless, pristine paths. Pure Bullshit. But CS and now many EE depts. and > the FCC all proselytize such crap > > So scarcity is inventedand sustained. > > There is a reigning Supreme Court opinion, the law of the land, that says > that there is by law a "finite number" of usable frequencies, and only one > transmitter can be allowed to use it at a time. Like legislating that pi = > 3 in a state, to make math easier. > > Except it is totally designed to create scarcity. And the State/Industry > Nexus maintains it at every turn. It's why lunatic economists claim that > spectrum is a form of property that can be auctioned. Like creating > property rights to each acre of the sea, allowing owners to block shipping > by buying a connected path down the mid Atlantic. > > We live in a Science Ignorant world. Intentionally. Even trained pH D. > Engineers testify before the FCC to preserve these lies. > > Yeah, I sound nuts. Check it out. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: "Dave Taht" <dave.t...@gmail.com> > Sent: Sat, Aug 25, 2018 at 5:22 pm > To: dpr...@deepplum.com > Cc: bloat-annou...@lists.bufferbloat.net, "bloat" < > bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net>, "Make-Wifi-fast" < > make-wifi-f...@lists.bufferbloat.net>, cerowrt-de...@lists.bufferbloat.net > Subject: Re: [Cerowrt-devel] closing up my make-wifi-fast lab > > On Sat, Aug 25, 2018 at 1:04 PM David P. Reed wrote: > > > > WiFi is a bit harder than IP. But you know that. > > > > I truly believe that we need to fix the phy/waveform/modulation space to > really scale up open wireless networking capability. LBT is the basic bug > in WiFi, and it is at that layer, melow the MAC. > > > > I have tried for 20 years now to find a way to begin work at that > project, by the way. There is also no major donor anywhere to be found for > that work. Instead, any funds that seem to be appearing get attacked and > sucked into projects that miss the point, being controlled by folks who > oppose openness (e.g. WISPs wanting exclusive ownership of a market, such > as so called SuperWiFi or whitespaces). I did once come close to a useful > award when I was at MIT Media Lab, from NSF. But after the award, the > funding was cut by 90%, leaving just enough to support a Master's thesis on > co-channel sharing, using two 1st Gen USRPs. Using my own funds, spare > time, and bubblegum and baling wire, I've slowly begun work on extra > wideband FPGA based sounding-centric sharing in the 10 GHz Ham band. (500 > MHz wide modulation), where I can self certify multiple stations in a > network. > > > > But the point is, I've failed, because there is less than zero support. > There is active opposition, on top of cluelessness. > > > > Paul Baran tried in 1993 to push forward a similar agenda, famously. 99% > of his concepts died. > > Cite? > > One of the things that bothers me about packet processing is that > Donald Davies (the oft uncredited other founder of the concept) wrote > 11 volumes on this subject. So far as I know, those have vanished to > history. > > Periodically, when I get stuck on something in this field, I fantasize > that scribbled in the margin of volume 9 was the solution to the > problem. > > > Thanks to Apple, and lots of others, we got WiFi, barely. Industry hated > that, and vow never to let that ever happen again. > > It really was a strange convolution of circumstances that led to wifi. > When i first got it working in 1998, metricom ruled the world. They > failed. After that, nobody thought it was feasible at scale until the > concept of a mac retry emerged to fix the packet loss problem, and APs > to provide a central clock (best we could do with the DSPs then). So > a window emerged (and yes, hugely driven by apple, but also by huge > popular demand for "wireless freedom") to put "buggy" wireless tech on > the crap 2.4 band in the hands of the people, it got established and > made the coffee shop a workplace, and bigcos attempting to wipe it out > (and largely, in the last few years, succeeding in dislodging it) have > had an uphill battle. > > If metricom had succeeded, or the celluar folk got their > implementations working only a few years faster, it would be a very > different world. > > (this history is all covered in my MIT preso here: > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wksh2DPHCDI&t=2007s - david was at > that one) > > > > > So Dave, I salute you and Toke and the others. I salute Tim Shepard, who > also moved the ball in his PhD thesis, only to hit the same wall of > opposition. > > Soooo many others involved, felix feitkau in particular comes to mind. > > Still, I think fixing the "wifi anomaly" is the greatest achievement > of my career... and toke's hasn't even officially started yet! Someday > perhaps that will be worth a medal, or an small entry for us in > wikipedia. > > > It's so sad. We get shit like the "Obama band" proposed by PCAST, and > are told to be thankful. > > Let's not get started on that or whitespaces today. > > > UWB failed miserably, too. > > I wish that could be resurrected. > > > My advice to any young smart innovator: don't touch wireless unless you > are working for an incumbent. Expect the incumbents and governments to > close and destroy wireless innovation. > > I agree. Well, I do have some hope and interest in spacex's > constellation, but I remember teledesic's failure too well. > > > > > Really. You will be in a world of hurt, and NO ONE will support > anything. Not even VCs. > > > > Very sorry to say this. I had hoped Make WiFi Fast would have gone > somewhere. I mourn its passing. > > It's not dead, I'm just closing my lab. > > In the document I cited for more wifi fixes, things like dynamically > scaling down the announced txop under contention, lowering retries, > offering a little less protection for packets when overloaded, a "tx > is almost done" interrupt, etc, are all things I expect vendors and > open source folk to try. I keep hoping minstrel-blues will land. Etc. > Outside the US there's still a lot of positive activity. Products like > eero and google wifi continue to sell like hotcakes, as well as tons > of cheaper gear, and iot, etc, etc. > > And there's some good progress in 802.11ax. > > fq_codel for wifi + these mods will make wifi continue to be more than > competitive with the upcoming 5G stuff. > > But i don't need to be the one to implement or test them. I should > have shut things down when the shuttleworth grant didn't come through. > When you can no longer get up in the morning to work, nor able to hold > the wifi standard and related code in your head, it's time to move on. > > It is bothersome to me that the ISPs don't seem to realize that their > business will fail unless they have good wifi, but the big ones are > out there merging with the LTE folk and don't care either. > > Wifi's had a great run. I think here - with 5 years of work - we've > extended its life another 5 years - at least. Still, unless > applications emerge again that need good low latency (like vr) over > wifi, nothings going to drive those down further to compete with 5g. > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: "Dave Taht" > > Sent: Fri, Aug 24, 2018 at 4:10 pm > > To: bloat-annou...@lists.bufferbloat.net, "bloat" , "Make-Wifi-fast" , > cerowrt-de...@lists.bufferbloat.net > > Cc: bloat-annou...@lists.bufferbloat.net, "bloat" , "Make-Wifi-fast" , > cerowrt-de...@lists.bufferbloat.net > > Subject: [Cerowrt-devel] closing up my make-wifi-fast lab > > > > All: > > > > It is with some regret that I am announcing the closing of my > > make-wifi-fast lab at the end of this month. > > > > Over the years we have relied on the donation of lab space from > > ISC.org, georgia tech, the LINCs, and the University of Karstadt and > > elsewhere - but my main base of operation has always been the > > "yurtlab", in a campground deep in the los gatos hills where I could > > both experiment and deploy wifi fixes[0] at scale. CeroWrt, in > > particular, was made here. > > > > During the peak of the make-wifi-fast effort I rented additional space > > on the same site, which at peak had over 30 routers in a crowded > > space, competing. Which I (foolishly) kept, despite the additional > > expense. Having heat in the winter and aircond in the summer was > > helpful. > > > > With ongoing donations running at $90/month[1] - which doesn't even > > cover bufferbloat.net's servers in the cloud - my biggest expense has > > been keeping the lab at lupin open at $1800/mo. > > > > I kept the lab going through the sch_cake and openwrt 18.06 release > > process, and I'm now several months behind on rent[3], and given how > > things have gone for the past 2 years I don't see much use for it in > > the future. Keeping it open, heated and dry in the winter has always > > been a problem also. I'm also aware of a few larger, much better > > equipped wifi labs that have thoroughly tested our "fq_codel for > > wifi"[4] work that finally ends the "wifi performance anomaly". it's > > in multiple commercial products now, we're seeing airtime fairness > > being actually *marketed* as a wifi feature, and I kind of expect > > deployment be universal across all mediatek mt76, and qualcomm ath9k > > and ath10k based products in the next year or two. We won, big, on > > wifi. Knocked it out of the park. Thanks all! > > > > Despite identifying all kinds of other work[5] that can be done to > > make wifi better, no major (or even minor) direct sponsor has ever > > emerged[2] for the make-wifi-fast project. We had a small grant from > > comcast, a bit of support from nlnet also, I subsidized what I did > > here from other work sources, toke had his PHD support, and all the > > wonderful volunteers here... and that's it. > > > > Without me being able, also, to hire someone to keep the lab going, as > > I freely admit to burnout and PTSD on perpetually reflashing and > > reconfiguring routers... > > > > I'm closing up shop here to gather enough energy, finances, and time > > for the next project, whatever it is. > > > > The make-wifi-fast mailing list and project will continue, efforts to > > make more generic the new API also, and hopefully there's enough users > > out there to > > keep it all going forward without the kind of comprehensive testing I > > used to do here. > > > > If anyone feels like reflashing, oh, 30 bricked routers of 8 different > > models, from serial ports (in multiple cases, like the 6 uap-ac-lites, > > via soldiering on headers), I'll gladly toss all the extra equipment > > in the lab in a big box and ship them to you. Suggestions for a > > suitable donation target are also of interest. > > > > The yurtlab has been an amazing, totally unique, unusual (and > > sometimes embarrassing [6]) place to work and think, but it's time to > > go. > > > > Perhaps I'll convince my amazingly supportive landlord to let me leave > > behind a plaque: > > > > "On this spot bufferbloat on the internet and in WiFi was fixed, > 2011-2018". > > > > Sincerely, > > Dave Taht > > > > [0] https://lwn.net/Articles/705884/ "How we made wifi fast again" > > [1] https://www.patreon.com/dtaht > > [2] Like adrian chadd's infamous flameout - I too, give up on wifi. > > There's gotta be some other tech worth working on. What we shipped is > > "good enough" to carry a few years though. > > [3] This is not a passive-aggressive request for help making rent next > > month, given all the other problems I have, it's best to close up shop > > while I look for a new gig. > > [4] https://arxiv.org/pdf/1703.00064.pdf "ending the wifi anomaly" > > [5] > https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Se36svYE1Uzpppe1HWnEyat_sAGghB3kE285LElJBW4/edit# > > [6] > https://www.cringely.com/2012/10/01/clothing-may-be-optional-but-bufferbloat-isnt/ > > _______________________________________________ > > Cerowrt-devel mailing list > > cerowrt-de...@lists.bufferbloat.net > > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel > > > > > > > -- > > Dave Täht > CEO, TekLibre, LLC > http://www.teklibre.com > Tel: 1-669-226-2619 > > > _______________________________________________ > Make-wifi-fast mailing list > make-wifi-f...@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/make-wifi-fast
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