Hi everyone, Thank you very much for all the constructive comments. Firstly, I should apologise if I came across as being attacking yesterday. It's really just frustration that previously it's been very hard to get to talk to anyone about accessibility issues in LibreOffice.
I must admit I will have to go back and have a look at the current state of issues with LibreOffice 7 and NVDA 2020.3. I started to compile information a few years ago and ensure all issues I knew about were filed, but as it was a bit of a black hole at the time, and NV Access developers didn't have the resources to work on LibreOffice as well as NVDA, it got set aside from our end. I will talk with the team about putting forward a proposal to the board, thank you Simon for that suggestion! And of course, issues do need to be prioritised - and as with any area, just because something may be an accessibility issue, doesn't mean it is critical, and some have workarounds which can be used in the meantime. But many accessibility issues do mean a feature, or even entire product is completely unusable to a particular group of people. They may then not report that but instead find an alternative product. If you can use a product, but one feature is a bit buggy, you are more likely to report that issue, than if the whole product is unusable (to you), particularly if you aren't familiar with Bugzilla, a screenreader user is much more likely to be apprehensive that even trying to report the issue is going to be too hard. (I know we have NVDA users who use Bugzilla, but for those not familiar with it, that would certainly be a consideration a screenreader user thinks of that a sighted user wouldn't necessarily worry about). Telesto's comment that developers aren't familiar with accessibility tools is entirely accurate, and I think demonstrative of a core problem in training of software developers - completely outside the scope of this conversation and what any of us has control over - but if an architect designed a big public building without a wheelchair accessible entrance, they would quickly find themselves out of work. Why? Are there so many people in wheelchairs? No - but actually mothers with prams, people with suitcases, an athletic 20 year old who hurt their leg playing football last week, and numerous others, all benefit from that wheelchair accessible entrance. The same is true for "accessibility" features in software. Everyone I have heard of who has purchased a computer in recent years with a half decent video card has taken advantage of accessibility features - video card manufacturers want you to use their video card at the maximum resolution - yet that makes everything tiny, so everyone either uses the "Make everything bigger" feature (in Windows) to set the value higher than 100%, or increase font size, or make the mouse a bit bigger. Of course, one of the main reasons that public buildings HAVE to have a wheelchair accessible entrance, is because legislation in most jurisdictions require it. That is starting to happen with software, but slowly. Thank you for the positive dialog - and again, I am looking forward to engaging positively on how we can work together. Quentin On Wed, Oct 28, 2020 at 9:20 PM Simon Phipps <si...@webmink.com> wrote: > Hi Quentin, > > Over the last 20 years I have spent quite a bit of energy on the matter of > accessibility in openoffice.org so let's consider your request in that > light. > > *Background* > > Accessibility is undeniably important, and LibreOffice already includes > the results of large amounts of work by a variety of people to make it > accessible to people with a variety of different needs. This work has been > done by different people with different affiliations over the years. It has > required skills, equipment and experience that are all specialised. It > would not be correct to assert that LibreOffice has neglected the needs of > those requiring specific accessibility accommodations. However, the need is > huge and there are always more needs that could be addressed, especially > maintaining the work that has already been done. > > LibreOffice is not written or maintained by TDF, despite all the materials > that might give you that impression. It is written by diverse individuals > with diverse motivations, many of them associated with employment. Almost > all of the significant additions to LibreOffice are made by developers > working for companies with a commercial interest in LibreOffice-derived > service, support and products. TDF's Board cannot give any of them > instructions to address any particular development need. The most they can > do is make a budget allocation to have work done, and when that happens it > needs to be openly tendered. Those tenders remain a controversial topic for > the Board as you will see from the minutes. > > *Your Request* > > To the matter of NVAccess. To have the accessibility capabilities your > organisation maintains integrated into LibreOffice is not within the direct > power of TDF's Board. They could however approve a detailed, costed work > proposal and then open a tender to have it satisfied by developers with the > appropriate skills. From looking at https://www.nvaccess.org/ it seems > the people most likely to be able to create that proposal are actually > staff and volunteers for the charity you represent. > > May I thus suggest that your energy would be better spent trying to create > that costed and detailed proposal for the Board to approve? If you need > help with the format or structure needed, it is likely a member of the > Engineering Steering Committee (which is actually the council of core > developers) would assist you, or failing that I am sure Florian would > direct you to resources if you asked him. I am no longer a Board member, > but I would expect your proposal to be received positively. This approach > will lead to an outcome; asking the Board to discuss accessibility in > general terms will not :-) > > I hope that helps. > > Best regards, > > Simon > > > On Wed, Oct 28, 2020 at 7:30 AM Quentin Christensen <quen...@nvaccess.org> > wrote: > >> Thanks Florian, >> >> Given the increasing use of open source software such as Libre Office in >> government and corporate use, it is disappointing it isn't more of a >> priority. Not being accessible does explicitly exclude LIbre Office from >> most government use for instance. I understand the difficulties with not >> having any paid developers you can direct to do particular work, but it >> does make the product specifically impossible to use for large segments of >> potential users. >> >> I wonder how other FLOSS projects handle this? >> >> Kind regards >> >> Quentin. >> >> On Wed, Oct 28, 2020 at 5:59 PM Florian Effenberger < >> flo...@documentfoundation.org> wrote: >> >>> Hi Quentin, >>> >>> Quentin Christensen wrote: >>> > Was there any discussion about accessibility and if so, did anything >>> > come out of it? >>> >>> there was no separate discussion about accessibility. It is one of the >>> topics the board has in their ranking, to determine the >>> importance/priority of the topic - but we didn't discuss it in detail. >>> >>> Florian >>> >> >> >> -- >> Quentin Christensen >> Training and Support Manager >> >> Web: www.nvaccess.org >> Training: https://www.nvaccess.org/shop/ >> Certification: https://certification.nvaccess.org/ >> User group: https://nvda.groups.io/g/nvda >> Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess >> Twitter: @NVAccess <https://twitter.com/NVAccess> >> > > > -- > *Simon Phipps* > *Office:* +1 (415) 683-7660 *or* +44 (238) 098 7027 > > -- Quentin Christensen Training and Support Manager Web: www.nvaccess.org Training: https://www.nvaccess.org/shop/ Certification: https://certification.nvaccess.org/ User group: https://nvda.groups.io/g/nvda Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess Twitter: @NVAccess <https://twitter.com/NVAccess>
