--- Dan Minette <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I'll respond to Jan's message in pieces: > > > > Here eat this bread which has a high probablility of having an > halusinogen in > > it and drink these firmented grapes which have alchohaul in it. > > No, but lets look at your evidence. I looked up ergot and found: > > http://www.killerplants.com/herbal-folklore/20010910.asp > > > > There are a few things worth noting there: > > 1) The levening of the bread didn't make much difference.
Nothing mentioned on levening in the article where did you get this? > 2) Wet weather was correlated with the phenomenon. At the time of the article which is not really on the subject & so what? > 3) It led to illness and death. I'm not going to go running around looking for supporting text for something that I have learned through docs and in class. But it is my understanding that: 1) Yest was used to cancle the effect of the argot. sickness of otherwise. 2) Unleven bread has been used in other spiritual practices as an halucinogen, specificaly without sickness and death. Rye was a weed grain and occurred wherever wheat was > cultivated. Often it became the dominant plant when wheat fields were > abandoned. Thus, in a way, where ever civilization became established, Rye > would follow it there. However, it was not cultivated for food until some > time, in the early Middle Ages (around the 5th. Century), in what is now > eastern Europe and western Russia. And the harvesting practices of 2000 years ago was so good that the rye was specificaly removed from the wheat? > http://www.angelfire.com/tx3/Jennifer1/explanations.html > > Ergot is extremely poisonous and is separated from grains when harvested. > Eating or coming in contact with this fungi can result in extreme sickness, > arms turning black and falling off or death. The chemicals found in this > fungi can have a very mild hallucinogenic and sedating effect, but one > would have to consume a large amount of the ergot to get enough of these > chemicals in to their system for the effect. Therefor, being poisonous, > would not be possible without dying first. Another argument is that a > chemical process might happen when baking. This is also unlikely due to the > fact that heat destroys ergot alkaloids and other chemical compounds. > Chemically speaking, it is more likely that these people were werewolves > rather than "tripping" on rye bread. This information is to enlighten and > remind you that anything is possible in this world. Mild halusinogen is all that is required I was not saying that they were "tripping" to the extent of 1960 drugies. Just that they would have a hightened sense of spirituality. Further more the sicknesses you reference are from ~continued~ use in large quatities. And that is not what we are talking about. Even further their are plenty of references to wormwood and "burning bush" which can be traslated as wormwood, and history of munks who use wormwood. Wormwood is also very poisinous (as is most natural halucinogens) and yet people take them in small quantities and survive. Besides, most of the "miricles" that are claimed in the bible and many of the actions and states of mind that these people seem to be in, can be very easily explained as halucinations. > So, putting together three sources, it seems to me that the ergot theory > has a lot of holes in it. ha ha. But to adress the statment You have skilfully found text you can twist to support your opinoin. If I were more skilled at that practice (and I was willing to sspend that effor and time on it) then I could probably find supporting ~text~ as well. I personaly do not put a lot of credibility in such things. Supporing text and doctored statistics can always be found to support whatever you like. Experts disagree enough on such topics that twisting it your way is allways possible. I do not engage, or put much credence in such a practice. It probably has something to do with the way I process text, but it is also experience. Just becouse someone wrote it down doesn't make it so. Those who equate phenome recal with knowldege and textual processing with the aquisition of knowledge may disagree, but these people tend to think linerly and find non-linear thinking dificult. I could easily claim that such text based linear "knowlege: is nothign but nonsens, and I often do when it is warented. The Warewolf buisness is one such case. That said there is a certain level of understanding which one can aquire from text. But this requires supporting study, not just statment. Non of the references you make speak to the specifics of argot or discuss studies performed with the substance. None of them say anything about the effect of yeast on the argot itslef. None of them discuss what mild effect it might have or what they mean by ~mild~. Also this was a suggestion, a more simple explination than what most christian organizations believe. It is not my duty to support a more simple explination by searchig the web for some specific information on yeast and argot. You seem to be good at that, so if you go looking you shuld find it. I do not have the time, or skill. Even if the argot was not a factor there is still the issue of wine. You hav enot addressed the other suggestion being that Jesus was simply offering consolement. ===== _________________________________________________ Jan William Coffey _________________________________________________ __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com _______________________________________________ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
