----- Original Message ----- From: "Jon Gabriel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Friday, October 03, 2003 12:56 AM Subject: Re: Raceism
> >From: "Robert Seeberger" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >Reply-To: Killer Bs Discussion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >To: "Killer Bs Discussion" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >Subject: Re: Raceism > >Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 18:07:08 -0500 > > > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: "Jan Coffey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >To: "Killer Bs Discussion" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2003 8:21 PM > >Subject: Raceism > > > > > > > Today on the news we learned that questioning hype around a quarterback > >is > > > racesist, > > > >UH.....that is not what happened, what was said, or even what is claimed. > > > > > > > > > > > but naming a team after an ethnic group which doe not desire to > > > have the team named after them is not. Then they should have complained loudly and longly back during the depression. > > > >Actually it isn't. For one thing, those who are complaining tend to live in > >places other than the Washington DC area, so they really have no say in the > >naming of a sports team in Washington DC. > > Sure they do. The name is a registered trademark by the Federal government. > State boundaries do not provide immunity to Federal trademark infringement > so the reasoning behind this argument seems flawed to me. > Well....it would be quite different if the Amerinds had registered "Redskins" as a trademark of one or more of their nations, but they didn't. Therefore there can be no trademark infringement associated with this case. The problem for them is that if they had registered, they would be severely limited in the prevention of the use of the word "Redskins". Imagine if the Washington DC team tried to prevent use of the team name in sports articles or by the fans (on the net frex, which is technically publication in many contexts). They couldn't possibly do this. So "Trademark" is a wasted argument in that regard. My point was that sports teams are named locally, by the owners or the fans, and not by others who might be half a continent away. > > > >Another point is that this complaint is a recent phenomena, only surfacing > >in the last couple of decades, while the name has been in use for at least > >4 > >times longer. Where were the complaints when the team was first named? > > So you're saying that racism is ok if it's been around for a while? I'm > truly not trying to bait you Rob, but this seems to be what you're trying to > assert? No not at all Jon! I think we both agree that would be reprehensable. What I am saying ( and this is to my mind quite fairly echoed by the Judge of the case) is that racism is not about a group or individual having their feelings hurt (though this is certainly a result), it is about another group or individual having the intent to hurt. FREX: Abdul tells Sioban that he is a worthless, stupid, mic. Siobans feelings might be hurt and she might be angry, but that does not make her a racist, nor does it imply that racism is a part of her makeup. OTOH Abdul could be called racist and his racism could be discussed. What the plaintiffs in the case were told is that not only did they fail to demonstrate harm due to the use of the word "Redskins", they also failed to demonstrate *intent* to harm. And one or the other or both would be required for their suit to succeed. They failed to find racism. For the plaintiffs to succeed in their case, they would have to demonstrate (for lack of a better term) "institutionalised" predjudice against Amerinds. And I would guess that would have to include anti-amerind attitudes and practices throughout the 20th century that last to this very day. And to be honest, the only institution I can think of who has participated in such behavior on an ongoing basis is the US government. To my mind the vast majority of citizens of this country think highly of Native Americans and find distasteful the treatment given these people as depicted in Jim Thorpes bio or "The Sands Of Iwo Jima". (Potential thread creep here) > > An additional question: Do you know for sure that there weren't complaints > made when the name was first chosen? I'm not sure a lawsuit would have had > any legal standing until the mid-40's.... or even then, considering the > point Julia raised. Its a very fair question, and I can't claim to have an answer that is definitive in any regard. I only know what I have read. I've been reading articles about this dispute since around the mid 70s and back then it was presented as something new and current. If there were any previous complaints I have never seen anything that even suggested it That being said, I would agree that such a suit, if brought back in the thirties, would have had greater validity, since the world was much closer (maybe a generation and a half) to the actual fighting between natives and those of european descent. Today, if you called someone a "Roundhead" or a "Puritan", you might get a puzzled look. I'm of the opinion that we are pretty close to the same state in regards to the use of "Redskin" as an epithet. > > > > >Thirdly, the name "Redskins" as applied to a sports team is in no way > >demeaning. On the contrary, sports teams are named with the intent to be > >impressive to a foe. By naming the team "Redskins", the namers show that > >they hold some degree of regard for "real" redskins. > > Well, the suit filers seem to have a different opinion. > I'm sure you realise that there are people out there who are looking to be offended in order to satisfy some self-righteous inner need or to perpetuate their persecution complex. I fully believe that the plaintiffs are sincere. I have no reason to believe otherwise. But I suspect they they are of the ilk who enjoy grinding axes. > > > >Lastly, have you noticed that the "Redskin" logo depicts a dignified > >aboriginal, while the "Braves" logo (which recieves fewer complaints BTW) > >depicts the same in a goofy stereotypical manner? > > > >So..........are you going to complain about Big Chief writing tablets next? > > If a team used the name 'The N*ggers' and had a bunch of black men in > business suits as their mascot, the disparity might be obvious, but we'd > still recognize the name as racist. More on this later. > In many ways this is an apples and oranges comparison. But it also deserves a lot of discussion due to the complexity of those differences and similarities. > <Rush Limbaugh stuff snipped> > > > > > > > But what about the so called "redskins"? A clear case of football > >racesism > > > here. Today the judge in the appeal sided with the NFL and against the > >native > > > americans who find the team's name severly distatefull. Only one > >brodcast > > > even mentioned the rulling. > > > >That is because very few people take such a frivilous lawsuit seriously. > > I saw it on three major networks and on CNN and NYOne news. The media here > paid attention and it wasn't a slow news day. Oh, and the suit was 11 years > old. Somebody cared about it enough to see ti through to the end. > And how much news did it generate over 11 years? There are always partisans. > > > >BTW, how many Native Americans have you polled on this subject? > >Because I know for sure you never asked me. > >(Look at a pic of me on Steves page) > >Or do only purebred people count? > > > > An interesting question, but unless you think the suit should have been > dismissed based on a lack of NA support, I don't quite understand your > point. Since a lawsuit was initiated, why shouldn't we simply assume that > at least some people feel strongly enough that the term was disparaging to > take action? My point was that Jan was presenting the argument as if there were great unity among Amerinds in regard to the suit. I question this. Where are the marches on Washington DC, the Redskins office, and the NFL office. They may have occured, but I never heard about them. Or...they may have occured with such small numbers that it demonstrates the actual importance of this issue among Amerinds. Is it or is it not a marginal issue for Amerinds? (The poll on the website isn't very convincing to my mind, considering its source) I could easily be swayed to change my position if harm could be demonstrated, and this would be in large part demonstrated if very large numbers of Amerinds were giving visibility to their displeasure. But at this point I see almost nothing. Compare this to African-Americans and the visiblity of their issues. (With some correction for population percentages which would actually increase the strength of their message) > > > > > > > What would anyone think of a football team named the "Crackers", or > > > "Whiteies", what about "Darkies", or the "Wetbacks"? Maybe missipppi > >needs > >a > > > team named the the "Slaves". How about the Huston "Cong" or the New York > > > "Chinks"? > > > >How very extreme of you. Why not just come out and suggest "niggers" while > >you are at it. What you are saying certainly seems to imply that all these > >"names" have an equal perjorative value. > >They do not. > >None of them are nice, no, not one bit, but they are not equal. And > >"Redskins" has pretty much fallen off the map as a perjorative. > > Considering that a lawsuit has been initiated, are you certain about this? > Do you live in a community where you come into contact with anti-american > indian racism on a regular basis? Look.....if there is anti-Amerind racism in Enid OK, that has no connection to the Washington Redskins. Anyone can file a Federal lawsuit, but that does not equate to a nationwide issue. If anti-Native American racism were as endemic as Jan seems to have inferred, then it would show, but it doesn't. Because I *look* like my Amerind ancestors and not too much like my Irish, Scottish, French, Dutch, German, or Swiss ancestors, I got called a spic, we tback, pepperbelly, and many other anti-Mexican racial slurs my entire life. I had Mexicans, American-Mexicans, and other Latin Americans deride me or threaten to fight me because I wouldn't "admit" to being Hispanic. The real irony here is that the majority of these Hispanics primary ancestry was North American Amerinds, though of a different variety than mine, as opposed to European Spaniards, as their names would suggest. I am quite familiar with racism and prejudice on the personal level, but can also see the misconceptions that initiate and guide racism, artificially creating systems of bias. And yes, there is a reservation just a few miles north of Dan M. These people are in Houston all the time, but you don't notice them because they are just a part of the regular crowd here. > > I'm not a member of the NA community. I also posted this as an example and > did in fact mention the 'n' word there and above. Can you explain why you > think the term 'redskin' is not as strong or extreme a pejorative as the > others? I sort of assumed that it had the same negative value as 'chink' or > 'kike' does to an asian or a jew. Am I wrong? Why was the lawsuit > initiated then? > > >I think that perjorative terms, losing the power to hurt is a good thing. > >And this seemingly PC attitude you espouse actually perpetuates a > >perjoratives ability to hurt. > > The term may not be used as often, but I don't personally think that makes > it less hurtful when it's used. And that is completely the responsibility of the hearer. > I'm not sure that ignoring racism is a > constructive solution either. Racists are like trolls. They only stick around if they are treated seriously. It gives them legitimacy in a perverted sort of way. > > > > >There is a sports team called the Whities. And their motto is "Everythings > >gonna be all White". The team is mostly Native Americans and they named > >their team in order to make light of the "Redskins" lawsuit supporters. > > > >I believe they are in Colorado with Debbie. <G> > > Didn't someone say that satire is the greatest form of flattery? :) > And that is why that approach works so well. Laugh at it and it becomes impotent. But what this lawsuit does is make racism more potent. xponent Destroyer Of Bigotry Maru rob _______________________________________________ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
