> Damon Agretto <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: [I wrote] > > I'll try to find some on-line pix of the various > > riding styles (knight vs. Moor) etc. > The reason why I inquired is because, as you may > know, I have a history > degree, and would tenatively describe myself as a > military historian. I have > plenty of source material on the subject. But when > you say that Arabians > "revolutionized" cavalry, you must be very careful > to define specifically what you mean.
"Arabians and Barbs," I wrote; the 'revolution' was in the changeover from heavier-type horses to lighter, more responsive ones -- although this is certainly from the horseman's perspective, and I daresay the introduction of guns had a far more revolutionary impact on warfare than a change of riding technique. It was not overnight, as the Muslim invasion began in ~711 AD, and conflict continued for centuries. http://www.sulphurs.com/history.htm "Regardless of the exact influence of one breed over another [Iberian Sorreia and North African Barb - there is some evidence that the Barb came from the Sorreia and not the other way 'round], it is evident that the exchange of blood was mutually beneficial and that it produced many similarities between the two breeds, to the point that the modern Barb resembles the Iberian stock and the Criollo horses of South America. During the almost eight hundred years in which Spain and Portugal were in constant war with the Moors, horse and horsemanship had become finely attuned to the war exercises. This superb war horse was the one that the conquistadors introduced and dispersed throughout the New World together with the a la gineta style of riding, which influenced the horse cultures of the Gauchos, Charros and Llaneros." They spell it "gineta." (I'd seen it as something more like "jineta.") [This site is somewhat biased in favor of the antiquity of the Iberian horse and its influence - but so are Arabian, Appaloosa and many other breeders/sites! IMHO, the Arabian and the Iberian are both very important in the history of horsebreeds - but not coincidentally, I adore both.] I also mentioned 'other oriental horses' and they were introduced to the Iberian Penninsula at various times: http://www.appaloosa-crossing.com/history101.htm "Great quantities of Oriental blood were introduced into Spain centuries prior to the birth of Christ. Periods of civilization and/or invasion of the peninsula include those of the Iberians (originally from north of Africa), peoples of the Alamanni, Basques (province of Navarre), Carthaginians, Celts, Cimbrians, Franks, Greeks, the Moorish invasion of 172-175 A.D., the Muslim invasion of 711 A.D., Ostragoths, Phoenicians, Romans, Suebi, Teutons, Vandals, Vistigoths, and perhaps some others (and not in order given). Each of these civilizations brought horses that had an influence on the native horses of Spain." [although the Sorreia-type has I think the more ancient claim and influence, and I believe that it is also found in cave paintings.] >For example, I'm a big proponent of > the Late Medieval > military revolution of using fully mounted armies. > This revolution was > strategic, rather than tactical (most of the troops > would ride to the > battlefield, but dismount to actually come to grips > with the enemy). So obviously our terms differ. OK - and I'm coming at it from a horseman's perspective as well. But then is this site incorrect, WRT the Battle of Hastings? http://www.imh.org/imh/kyhpl2a.html#xtocid165601 "In 1066, William the Conqueror of Normandy put 3,000 horses on 700 small sailing ships and headed across the channel to England. William had come to secure his right to the English throne from King Harold. They met in a valley near Hastings where William's army was victorious due largely to his cavalry assisted by archers. They charged into the wall of shields put up by the Saxon infantry, but shields were little defense against war-horses and knights." > For more information, I would highly reccommend > looking at medieval history > books. In particular, Michael Prestwich in _Armies > and Warfare in the Middle > Ages: The English Experience_ has some good info on > warhorses in medieval > England (which would probably be applicable to other > areas of Europe, > especially as the English busily imported breeding > stock from Spain during the 14th C). <grin> And from Friesland as well: http://www.imh.org/imh/bw/friesian.html "From records of the past we know that the Friesian horse of old was famous. There is information from as early as 1251 and there are books in which Friesian horses were mentioned and praised from as early as the 16th century. "Armored knights of old found this horse very desirable, having the strength to carry great weight into battle and still maneuver quickly. Later, its suppleness and agility made the breed much sought after for use in riding schools in Paris and Spain during the 15th and 16th centuries... "...The well-known English writer on horses, Anthony Dent, and others are of the opinion that the Friesian horse influenced the Old English Black Horse and the Fell Pony." Here is one site using the '400# of man and armor' I thought I recalled (_but_ see next cite): http://www.blackshire.com/why.asp "Sir Walter Gilbey, an early authority on the breed, had this to say in the introduction to Volume 1 of the stud book, a tome dedicated to the history of the Shire’s. "The Shire horse is the purest survival of an early type which was spoken of by medieval writers as the 'Great Horse. 'If this horse did not originate in England, this country at a very early date acquired a widespread reputation for producing it. Indeed, the English 'Great-at Horse' seems to have been a native development of that British 'War Horse' whose strength, courage' and aptitude for discipline are spoken of in high terms by the chroniclers of the Roman legions at their first landing upon these shores." "There are good reasons for believing that in the English Great Horse, modern Shire horses were originated. It really seems to be true that the most powerful animals now existing in England, for the advance of agriculture and commerce, (i.e., the arts of peace) are the direct descendants of the horse which, when Julius Caesar arrived here, attracted his attention for its efficiency in the assistance which it rendered to our forefathers in the pursuits of war." "The destiny of the Shire and of England is inexorably entwined. In the period between the reign of Henry II, 1154, and that of Elizabeth (commencing in 1558) it seems to have been a constant aim of the government to increase the size and number of horses called "The Great Horse." Little wonder, the weight of many horse soldiers in armour was upwards to 400 lbs. for rider and armour. War then is the ancient heritage and role of the Shires. "Like the other standard draft breeds, the Shire was improved by the infusion of outside blood at various times in history, notably that of the north German Flemish horses (Belgian) and the horses of Flanders during the reign of King John, from 1199 to 1216. Reasonably good records exist, dating back nearly 1000 years. During these times outside blood continued to influence the breed. Breeders were not hampered by a breed registry and no limits were imposed. The use for which the Shire was primarily maintained also changed. "During the reign of Henry VIII, from 1509 to 1547, special attention was directed to the raising and breeding of strong horses, and several laws were passed with that in mind. Acts were passed in 1535 and 1541 forbidding the use for breeding of horses under15 hands in height..." OTOH, this site says they carried under 300#: http://www.imh.org/imh/kyhpl2a.html#xtocid165605 "Actually, a good suit of armor was not over 70 pounds in weight; and therefore, the horse would only be expected to carry some 250 to 300 pounds. The real reason large horses were useful was because their weight gave greater force to the impact of the knight's lance, both in warfare and in the tournament. A destrier weighed twice as much as a conventional riding horse... "...While the added weight of the knight's mount provided extra leverage for his lance, the Arabian horse was good for quick turns and endurance, and often allowed the Moor to out maneuver the Knight's slower horse..." [This site reports, as others, that the Moors brought fewer horses with them than previously assumed - but it would not take many stallions to cross and create lighter horses. While the preferred Muslim warmount was an Arabian mare, I strongly suspect that they would *not* have used mares to crossbreed, as purity was highly valued.] Here are various statues and paintings, and actual horse-armor: http://www2.truman.edu/~capter/jins343/medi.htm The Italian condottiori (?sp) circa 1328 is riding a lighter horse; weight of the actual armor on models is sadly not given, though some is apparently partially composed of boiled leather rather than all-metal. I couldn't find better pictures on the net - most of the above are long-stirruped; some look more like palfreys or coursers rather than destrier/warhorses. Several cites for Persian and Arabian armored cavalry, 'shock' tactics, and stirrups are mentioned here - have to head to the library! (Thanks for the title.) :) http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/med/sloan.html Debbi "Standing like tanks on the prow of the hill, Up into the cold wind facing- In stiff battle harness chained to the world, Against the low sun, racing..." Jethro Tull, "Heavy Horses" __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/careermakeover
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