----- Original Message ----- From: "Andrew Paul" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Killer Bs Discussion" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Monday, September 20, 2004 9:59 AM Subject: RE: indeterminacy, chaos, and complexity -L3
> From: Dan Minette [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > >One of the things that I would like to do is break the cycle of repeated > >arguments, that tend to exist after mostly the same people cover mostly the > >same territory. > > Spoilsport ! > > Its like a Bach symphony, or perhaps more Peter and the Wolf.. > And here comes Dan, with the rich tones of the Viola.. > > >>From this, possibly, a more fruitful discussion might emerge. > > But on a serious note, I can't but support your intentions, my only quibble > would be that sometimes one needs to go over the same ground a few times. > > <snips a lot of stuff I generally agree with> > > >Having said this with confidence, it doesn't mean that counter-intuitive > >things cannot happen. For example, creationists have argued that entropy > >is inconsistent with evolution. One way to look at evolution is that more > >and more complex and ordered systems evolve from less complex and ordered > >systems. Since the principal of entropy states that things naturally > >become less ordered, this cannot happen. > > >There is a hole in this reasoning, of course. The law of entropy is for a > >closed system. There is no reason why the entropy of an open system cannot > >be reduced.as long as the entropy of other systems that are connected to > >this system rise at least as much as that system falls. So, localized > >drops in entropy, which appear paradoxical to the casual observer, can be > >seen to be very compatible with the laws of physics. > > I have long found this topic interesting. Does this have any sort of "action at > a distance" implications. How is the rise of apparent order, in the form of life on > earth say, balanced by some entropy increase elsewhere. And what form does this > take. When I mow my lawn, does some distant sun go supernova? A silly example > perhaps, but how is the presence of life (which does seem rather anti-entropic) > balanced somewhere else, in another system. How does this other system know > to become less ordered? Becasue they are connected. Penrose has an absolutely brillient and intuative discussion of this in "The Emperor's New Mind" The sun radiates photons from its surface at ~4000K via blackbody radiation. They peak around yellow, in the visiable spectrum. The earth receives these photons as energy in a relatively low entropy form. Its in (roughly) thermal equilibrium, so it must radiate the same amount of energy out. But, since it is at, roughly, 300K, it radiates ~10x the number of photons each of which has ~10% of the energy of the sun's photons. This is a significant increase in entropy. Plants produce internal lower entropy states by absorbing the higher energy photons, and using them in photosynthesis. If you look at the entrophy of the photons that hit the earth, and compare it to the entropy of those radiated by the earth, you will see a much larger increase in entropy compared to the decrease of entropy in the plants. Fossil fuels are not just an energy source. They are stored low entropy states. Dan M. _______________________________________________ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
