----- Original Message ----- From: "Martin Lewis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Killer Bs Discussion" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Monday, October 25, 2004 3:22 AM Subject: Re: From the Guardian
> On Sun, 24 Oct 2004 16:52:45 -0500, Dan Minette > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > I'll stop here and see if you agree with this view of libertarianism, > > > > before going on. > > > > > > Yes, I'd say that was classic libertarianism. This is of course very > > > different to the sense in which the Culture list is strongly > > > libertarian. > > > > OK, how can one be libertarian and believe in strong government > > intervention in the lives of individuals? The 2-D cross-plot that was > > attached to that list is based on a survey that studiously ignores many > > reasonable questions about government interference in individual lives. In > > other words, having the government interfere in individual lives when one > > thinks its a good idea and not interfering when one doesn't think so is not > > libertarian. > > So what your saying is you have a problem with the methodology of > Political Compass* therefore the Culture list suffers from cognitive > dissonance. Unsurprisingly I don't find this very compelling. > > Either you accept the Political Compass contention that an axis of > civil libertarianism exists seperate from economic libertarianism and > the list is libertarian or you don't accept it in which case the list > is not libertarian. I think the fromer, you think the latter but in > both cases your strawman charge of cognitive dissonance dissappears. Well, I obtained my understanding of the 2-D compass from the site: http://www.politicalcompass.org/ Let me quote: <quote> Both an economic dimension and a social dimension are important factors for a proper political analysis. By adding the social dimension you can show that Stalin was an authoritarian leftist (i.e. the state is more important than the individual) and that Gandhi, believing in the supreme value of each individual, is a liberal leftist. While the former involves state-imposed arbitrary collectivism in the extreme top left, on the extreme bottom left is voluntary collectivism at regional level, with no state involved. Hundreds of such anarchist communities existed in Spain during the civil war period <end quote> OK, this differentiation makes sense to me. Economic left-right is whether you believe in individual based or collective based economy, and libertarian/authoritarian is whether you believe that people's actions should be voluntary or controlled by the government. I even have had considerable experience with a voluntary collective. My college was run by the largest individual community in a voluntary collective that has been in existence for 1500 years. I've talked with the monks about their community, and I have a decent feel for the type of discipline that is required for a voluntary collective. Then I go and look at the plot of various Culturenicks on the 2D compass, and compare it with their stated positions on a number of things, and do not see their position on the plot reflecting a differentiation between Stalin's and Gandhi's economic position. Not that they are with Stalin, but they certainly favor many aspects of an involuntary collective. The main form of libertarianism that I see in Culture is a distrust of government actions in the world, a favoring of looser laws concerning drugs, sex, abortion, drinking, and speeding. Considerable governmental control on the economic activities of others are favored. A libertarian/authoritarian score in the middle sounds about right, instead it is near the bottom. There is the dissonance. Voluntary collectives can and do exist. Historically, they require a profound shared belief (monasteries, kibbutz', the Pilgrims), which is the source for the tremendous discipline that is required. If people believe that such collectives can eventually spring up naturally, then I consider them dreamers. People who claim to be libertarians who favor strong government control of the economy (civil axis) have, IMHO, a cognitive dissonance. Dan M. _______________________________________________ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
