2.I don't have any
3.I live at home and mummy pays all the bills.
4.No
5.I have had two sexual partners this calendar year
6.I have never had a sexually transmitted infection, to the best of my knowledge
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: britdisc@near.me.uk To: britdisc@near.me.uk Subject: BritDisc Digest, Vol 21, Issue 25 Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 14:38:40 +0100
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: Worrying trend (Christian Nistri) 2. RE: Worrying trend (Stu Greer) 3. TDs (Barry O'Kane) 4. Worrying trend (Ed Blockley) 5. Mixed Tour 2 entries (Adam Batchelor) 6. Re: Worrying trend (Adam Batchelor) 7. Re: TDs (Adam Batchelor)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1 Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 12:02:09 +0100 From: Christian Nistri <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: [BD] Worrying trend To: Ultimate Frisbee <britdisc@near.me.uk> Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>If it is true that the profit margins are so small then I retract my comments.
>As my points are only relevant on a profit to effort/services ratio.
perhaps next time you could contact each TD and find out the details before writing ill thoughtout emails.
And people wonder why there are so few TD's................Adam perhaps you could apologise for the rain in Bristol making the pitches muddy, whilst Hannah and I apologise for there not being enough rain in mansfield!
wigsy.
------------------------------
Message: 2 Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 11:08:25 +0000 From: "Stu Greer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: RE: [BD] Worrying trend To: britdisc@near.me.uk Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Content-Type: text/plain; format="flowed"
Rebecca, et al
I think tournaments are not expensive, they are not cheap, but we get good value for money.
The whole debate about tour structure is largely due (I think?) to the fact that the UKU did not get enough bids to split the tour and hence overcrowded, etc etc tournaments.
So why do we want competition to drive down tour prices? This would surely make even less people willing to run tournaments, as one of the main reasons TD's run tournaments is because they feel they can cover their costs and time with the takings (and of course the other reason being their love of the game [i.p.emwink.gif] )
One suggestion I have heard before is to have a dedicated UKU based TD Team (or individual) who is paid part-time by UKU and who sort out the 4 tours, 4 mixed tours and nationals. Then there would be profit going to UKU, the need for just one set of tournament equipment (therefore it can be of high standard), etc. Practical? not for me to say... Stu Steal #02
>From: "Rebecca Forth" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >To: britdisc@near.me.uk >Subject: [BD] Worrying trend >Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 10:01:09 +0100 (BST) > > >Dear anyone still interested in the debate: > >I'd just like to throw into the debate: The price of tours. >I am really beginning to feel tournament directors are charging far too >much and each year they escalate. With 50+ teams attending. The level of >profit is ridiculous and over and above for the level of work. > >In the past there have been two main arguments for increased tournament >feees : >1) If you want better pitch/off pitch services then you have to pay for them >2) If you don't like it run a tournament yourself > > > >I do not believe we have had any better services. You can see that >efforts are being made. But are they really improving services and do they >justify the level of TD profit at the expense of ultimate players? >We've still had holey dry fields with not enough water, been asked to take >scoreboards/set cones out and in some tours the end of game signal hasn't >even been clear. > > >The second argument, that you should run one yourself if you don't like >the current options, is not the way forwards, because everyone who does >choose to enter the tournament business (and it is a business in this >country like nowhere else in the world!) charges the same amount as >previous TD's and reaps the profits. And those charges are only >escalating. > > >If we are forced to pay through the nose for a tournament it would be good >if the UKU benefitted so they can implement many of the suggested future >initiatives. > > >I also think that the profits of the tours should be published. This way >the UKU can take a percentage of those profits. Whilst also maintaining a >cap on tournament fees. > > >Many of us dedicate a vast amount of money and time to our sport - it >would be nice to also feel like you weren't being taken for a ride >everytime you enter a tour. > > >Bex >Bliss > > >- > > >The age old argument about price for a tour > >The pitches were no better, I saw one petrol can filled of water all >weekend by our pitches. > >Should we really be paying £160 for a weekend for these > >-- >Rebecca Forth >Colt Foundation Research Fellow >Portex Anaesthesia, Intensive Therapy & Respiratory Unit >Institute of Child Health >30 Guilford Street >London >WC1N 1EH > >__________________________________________________ >BritDisc mailing list >BritDisc@near.me.uk >http://zion.ranulf.net/mailman/listinfo/britdisc >Staying informed - http://www.ukultimate.com/informed.asp
------------------------------
Message: 3 Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 12:26:46 +0100 From: "Barry O'Kane" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: [BD] TDs To: <britdisc@near.me.uk> Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Hi all,
The profits TD's make vary considerably; its controlled by the number of teams and venue costs; two factors which in turn depend on the event and location.
Personally I encourage TDs to maximise profits (without exceeding the accepted norm for team costs or sacrificing tournament quality) because I believe that the people who make these events happen so I can play my Ultimate deserve all they can get. We also need more TDs!
The UKUA supports all our TDs up to the hilt. Within the constraints of an
amateur, volunteer run organisation we get extremely good events. Under the
current arrangements we don't force TDs to publish accounts - that's up to
them (although look to see that change next year).
Having said that we do appreciate that we want our events to be better - better standards, better services and better value for money - we'll all continue to do our best.
Barry
------------------------------
Message: 4 Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 12:27:19 +0100 From: Ed Blockley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: [BD] Worrying trend To: britdisc@near.me.uk Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
What do we learn from this? don't run tournaments in London! We ran tour 2 at only £80 per team just 3 years ago. we donated over £1000 to a charity (of Si Weeks' choice) and still made profit.
> Message: 5 > Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 11:23:02 +0100 > From: Jolyon Thompson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: Re: [BD] Worrying trend > To: britdisc@near.me.uk > Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > On the 'do it yourself' point > > My experience of running nationals 2 years ago (In London for those > who can't remember) it is not always a possibility for most of us. > Putting on a tourney generally involves going somewhere you either > live near now or did do for a long time (eg parents etc) rarely do you > think that would be a nice place to go lets see what's around. > Consequently not everywhere can do a DIY job. In London I paid 4000 > for pitches and made about 500 --On food only-- at 150 per team. > Looking elsewhere in London I am hard pushed to find a venue that can > accommodate enough caars at a price people will pay whilst being able > to sleep easy the night before. Unlike last time when I had to go to > sleep knowing that the first 100 profit that food made was just to > break even! > > Just a sample profit thing in case the wider public care. > > Jo > Clapham
-- Regards, ______________________ Ed Blockley MMath PhD, Department of Mathematics University of Exeter _____________________ Laver Building, North Park Road, St German's Road, Exeter. EX4 4QE. Phone: 01392 263 990 Fax: 01392 263 997 Mobile: 07974 977 313 Web: http://www.secsm.ex.ac.uk/mat/
Back London's bid to host the 2012 Olympic Games - register your support online at www.london2012.com
------------------------------
Message: 5 Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 12:37:29 +0100 From: "Adam Batchelor" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: [BD] Mixed Tour 2 entries To: <britdisc@near.me.uk> Cc: Mathew Edwards <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Please all see below the list of Teams that have now been entered in Mixed Tour 2
Please not any responses must go to all emails above if you want to reply
1) BASIC 1 2) BASIC 2 3) SALT n SAUCE 4) SHEFFIELD STEEL 5) PLASTIC FACTORY 1 6) PLASTIC FACTORY 2 7) DISCUITS 8) THUNDERING HERD 9) ELECTRIC MAYHEM 10) LTD RELEASE 11) FLYGHT CLUB 12) BAF 13) HIGH ALTITUDE 14) ABH 15) DEVEN 16) LITTLE SHEFF 17) CURIOUS BACON 18) NORTHERN FRIED HICKS 19) CARDIFF ULTIMATE 20) LEEDSLEEDSLEEDS 21) PING DYNASTY 22) BRIGHTON ULTIMATE 23) LUCKY HUCKERS 24) THROWIN SHAPES 25) RAMPANTX
Regards
Adam & MattFrom [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fri May 20 13:37:55 2005 Received: from web30205.mail.mud.yahoo.com (web30205.mail.mud.yahoo.com [68.142.200.88]) by zion.ranulf.net (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-7.1) with SMTP id j4KCbqkn012446 for <britdisc@near.me.uk>; Fri, 20 May 2005 13:37:54 +0100 Received: (qmail 93388 invoked by uid 60001); 20 May 2005 12:37:41 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=e+XP9EeU+xohzU0MyQSPIBOSVcRXmgR4GMsRNIbv4RNteBGa4ANG50hX+8fb/uNUqfkpMqDEMrLPGtrfD7yH7QFCtFHaoSYFd4j3LIQFEK+mmgjkjaIjqraqb2nyyOApN62A+fjIPUuVMLVhFWv9gdhvfkF+5AzGKI2FMY6o0Iw ; Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from [155.198.226.41] by web30205.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 20 May 2005 05:37:41 PDT Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 05:37:41 -0700 (PDT) From: Chris Rowlands <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: RE: [BD] Worrying trend To: britdisc@near.me.uk In-Reply-To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-BeenThere: britdisc@near.me.uk X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Information about UK disc sports <britdisc.near.me.uk> List-Unsubscribe: <http://zion.ranulf.net/mailman/listinfo/britdisc>, <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> List-Archive: <http://zion.ranulf.net/pipermail/britdisc> List-Post: <mailto:britdisc@near.me.uk> List-Help: <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> List-Subscribe: <http://zion.ranulf.net/mailman/listinfo/britdisc>, <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
I should point out right here and now that I have never organised a tournament, but it seems to me that the problem is not the high fees, rather it's a simple supply and demand argument - if we get more bids there is more competition which helps keep the price at a reasonable level. The question is therefore how do we do this? I have one suggestion; I'm sure people can add more: Add a bit for TDs to the UKUltimate site, basically a database containing as many places with acceptable facilities as possible - schools, fields, pitches, parks, country houses etc. complete with approximate costs of hiring the facilities, and how MANY Ultimate pitches they can accomodate. Ideally, a section on where to find local pitch markers / caterers / masseurs etc. would be great. Set the database up as a "wiki" so that if information is found to be incorrect, or a site isn't listed in the database, it can be updated by the person who last checked it (If you don't know what a wiki is, look at www.wikipedia.org for a good example of how it works). Also, a "guide" on how to run a tourney (I vaguely recall we already have one, but write one if not) to go with the database would be useful.
The argument for this is simple - We don't really have shortage of potential TDs (Think how many students would be grateful for an extra £500 at the end of a term) or even pitches, rather it is the fact that TDs spend too much time trying to find suitable places, people, facilities etc. The easier we can make the process, the more people will be willing to run a tourney, the more competition there will be and the more accurately the cost will reflect the cost of running the tournament (including the TDs time, before I get flamed). You can even split the profit amongst a group of friends (they don't have to be Ultimate players) if you need more people to fill water bottles / chase up scores / sell food / whatever.
OK - practicalities: We'd need people to actually contribute data on the facilities we can use. The previous Tour venues are of course a good start, but if people won't take the time to jot down a place when they see it then it won't work. We as a community would each need to take just 5 mins occasionally to update the database every time we see a potential site, even if you can't add that much information at the time (someone else can always add more info later if they're interested in it). The major issue here would be "are previous TDs willing to give up their competitive advantage by sharing information?" Personally I think most TDs are motivated by helping Ultimate rather than making a huge profit, so I don't think this will be a problem. Second problem - my HTML / Javascript / XML skills are pathetic to say the least. I know that the principle of setting up the database is possible, but I personally can't code it. Possibly some of the web gurus here can comment further on the practicalities (I know Rich Hims is rather handy with a website - there must be more)
Anyway, I really should do some work. If you've got any personal comments you can flame me off-list, or if you just want to discuss ideas etc. Cheers for reading,
Chris Disc Doctors (+looking for an open team...)
Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 11:49:17 +0100 (BST) From: hannah easter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: RE: [BD] Worrying trend To: "Statham, Simon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, britdisc@near.me.uk Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Simon,
I agree! Bex i think it is highly unfair of you to say
that... i pay for our pitches out of my own money because people cant get themselves or there teams organised in time to pay 1 month in advance of the events... i see that MT3 Bakewell is suffering the same as Tour 3 last year with people not paying up because they are ignorant or unorganized
enough to sort it out!
Last year I had 4 teams entered by the final entry date… and I would have cancelled except that these things were all payed in advance. Altogether I hired 8 people this weekend and sacrificed MY ultimate (which I love) to run a tour. Yes I make some money but nothing like what you might think, if i actually charged myself for my time i would be lucky to break even. I will happily publish my finances for the tour, if and when asked to do so…
Bex stated “The price of tours. I am really beginning to feel tournament directors are charging far too much and each year they escalate” you might want to do some research
here, the prices are the same as last year…
Bex stated “I do not believe we have had any better services” yes you have you have just forgotten the days when people did not pander to people every whim… the days with no shelter, no food on site, now accommodation lists pre tournament, no cheap food option in the evening, no flat fields etc…etc… this is what is was like when I started playing, and you have been there longer than me… would Bliss like to be employed by me at the tour to be at my beck and call???????
Bex stated “We've still had holey dry fields with not enough water,” Ok OK so the water service was not as good as it could have been, but when I saw that the 2 full time staff I employed from the council could not cope with the demand… I WENT OUT AND DID LOTS OF WATER RUNS MY SELF… as well as doing everything else!!!
Bex stated “been asked to take scoreboards/set cones out”
Not being funny but why is that so hard… you are going to your pitch any way, and I do believe that we took them all out there anyway and 8 cones and a scoreboard is not that heavy between a squad of 10-15… maybe I am wrong and we did not do this for that I appologise, however it is not being very constructive to slate people on brit disc… speak to the TDs directly… I am sure we will respond much better in
person.
Bex stated “in some tours the end of game signal hasn't even been clear.” Bex that is a given, but I have yet to find hooters that have different sounds… will try again for the next tour.
And on the subject of food, i make cheap fairly healthy food on site for your ease not mine!!! i cook for hours so you you can have a cheaper healthier option than a burger van... but maybe that is where i don't understand things so well... may be the answer is to just get burger vans on site... would be a hell of a lot easier for me!
And while on the subject of orgainsing tours… I got of my arse and made the contacts as did the other tour TDs, I have found 3 different venues and have used this one because the changing room facilities are good, showers are hot, and we have made contacts in the area…. However I could run tours else where… do you have a venue you have found in mind…
Hannah
Tour 2 TD (LLL 21 & Ex-Bliss)
Yahoo! Mail Stay connected, organized, and protected. Take the tour: http://tour.mail.yahoo.com/mailtour.html
------------------------------
Message: 6 Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 14:02:55 +0100 From: "Adam Batchelor" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: [BD] Worrying trend To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, <britdisc@near.me.uk> Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original
Yes. Adam ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rebecca Forth" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <britdisc@near.me.uk> Sent: Friday, May 20, 2005 10:01 AM Subject: [BD] Worrying trend
>
> Dear anyone still interested in the debate:
>
> I'd just like to throw into the debate: The price of tours.
> I am really beginning to feel tournament directors are charging far too
> much and each year they escalate. With 50+ teams attending. The level of
> profit is ridiculous and over and above for the level of work.
>
> In the past there have been two main arguments for increased tournament
> feees :
> 1) If you want better pitch/off pitch services then you have to pay for
> them
> 2) If you don't like it run a tournament yourself
>
>
>
> I do not believe we have had any better services. You can see that
> efforts are being made. But are they really improving services and do they
> justify the level of TD profit at the expense of ultimate players?
> We've still had holey dry fields with not enough water, been asked to take
> scoreboards/set cones out and in some tours the end of game signal hasn't
> even been clear.
>
>
> The second argument, that you should run one yourself if you don't like
> the current options, is not the way forwards, because everyone who does
> choose to enter the tournament business (and it is a business in this
> country like nowhere else in the world!) charges the same amount as
> previous TD's and reaps the profits. And those charges are only
> escalating.
>
>
> If we are forced to pay through the nose for a tournament it would be good
> if the UKU benefitted so they can implement many of the suggested future
> initiatives.
>
>
> I also think that the profits of the tours should be published. This way
> the UKU can take a percentage of those profits. Whilst also maintaining a
> cap on tournament fees.
>
>
> Many of us dedicate a vast amount of money and time to our sport - it
> would be nice to also feel like you weren't being taken for a ride
> everytime you enter a tour.
>
>
> Bex
> Bliss
>
>
> -
>
>
> The age old argument about price for a tour
>
> The pitches were no better, I saw one petrol can filled of water all
> weekend by our pitches.
>
> Should we really be paying £160 for a weekend for these
>
> --
> Rebecca Forth
> Colt Foundation Research Fellow
> Portex Anaesthesia, Intensive Therapy & Respiratory Unit
> Institute of Child Health
> 30 Guilford Street
> London
> WC1N 1EH
>
> __________________________________________________
> BritDisc mailing list
> BritDisc@near.me.uk
> http://zion.ranulf.net/mailman/listinfo/britdisc
> Staying informed - http://www.ukultimate.com/informed.asp
>
------------------------------
Message: 7 Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 14:38:28 +0100 From: "Adam Batchelor" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: [BD] TDs To: "Barry O'Kane" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, <britdisc@near.me.uk> Cc: Rebecca Forth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original
I have been listening to this for a while and I would just like to know: 1. How much do you earn a year 2. What do you on credit cards 3. What do you pay for rent / mortgage 4. do you have any alternative incomes 5. How many people have you slept with this year 6. Do you have or have ever had any sexual diseases... etc Don't want to answer? Bit personal?
Well just for the record Matt and I earn well from our events.
The absolute details... go to hell.
You do not have the right to that information, although anyone who knows me
will know that I pass it on willingly.
The reason we do well is because we are good business peolpe and I run a
company in the leisure industry, and hence have large resources to call upon
(63 staff)
£10 to £15 per player for a weekend.
PHONE YOUR MUM!!!!!
You disgust me!
Adam Batchelor Sick of whining B******
----- Original Message ----- From: "Barry O'Kane" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <britdisc@near.me.uk> Sent: Friday, May 20, 2005 12:26 PM Subject: [BD] TDs
>
> Hi all,
>
> The profits TD's make vary considerably; its controlled by the number of
> teams and venue costs; two factors which in turn depend on the event and
> location.
>
> Personally I encourage TDs to maximise profits (without exceeding the
> accepted norm for team costs or sacrificing tournament quality) because I
> believe that the people who make these events happen so I can play my
> Ultimate deserve all they can get. We also need more TDs!
>
> The UKUA supports all our TDs up to the hilt. Within the constraints of
> an
> amateur, volunteer run organisation we get extremely good events. Under
> the
> current arrangements we don't force TDs to publish accounts - that's up to
> them (although look to see that change next year).
>
> Having said that we do appreciate that we want our events to be better -
> better standards, better services and better value for money - we'll all
> continue to do our best.
>
> Barry
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> BritDisc mailing list
> BritDisc@near.me.uk
> http://zion.ranulf.net/mailman/listinfo/britdisc
> Staying informed - http://www.ukultimate.com/informed.asp
------------------------------
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End of BritDisc Digest, Vol 21, Issue 25 ****************************************
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