Yes, thats correct. I think Dr. Kunte is indeed planning on those lines. mtDNA would be the ultimate signature !!!
There should be collective efforts by experts to replicate the work of Dr. Harish Gaonkar for entire India. I am sure Dr. Kumar Ghorpade will be the happiest person if this happens. I will be more than happy to assist the experts with my time, whenever that happens. I am indeed talking about carrying food and their equipments in difficult terrains :-)). Kishen On Wed, Jul 28, 2010 at 11:37 AM, Peter Smetacek < [email protected]> wrote: > > > Dear Kishen, > agree with what you say. What I meant about the species like > hordonia/sandaka, athamas /agraria is not that they cannot be distinguished, > but that all field ids and breeding records where the researcher competently > identified the species ACCORDING TO ACCEPTED KNOWLEDGE OF THE TIME and > reported the information, all that information is now uncertain with the > realisation that what was earlier athamas is actually two species, same for > hordonia, etc. > Taxonomy progressed through the study of external physical features until > the beginning of the 20th century, when the study of genitalia served to > distinguish many species indistinguishable superficially. At present, mtDNA > is gaining increasing acceptance for distinguishing taxa, so there is no > telling which way the documentation of taxa is going to proceed. In such an > event, it is always better to keep the specimens one has bred, or to have > the specimens examined to report a local checklist, so that in the event of > taxonomic changes, matters can be reliably updated...one does not mean that > one should take every speimen that one sees, but individuals that contribute > to scientific knowledge should certainly be retained in a well maintained > collection. > I refer, for example, to Dr. Kunte's recent record of a new palmfly for > India, published in Journal of Threatened Taxa: he actually held the > specimen in his hand, photographed it and released it. We do not have an > example of that species in any Indian collection. I feel that the specimen > should have been taken and deposited in a National Collection, eg., the > National Forest Insect Collection in Dehra Dun. > I realise that Dr. Kunte was simply keeping within the rules by not taking > a specimen within a protected area. However, I feel there is need for a > change in rules concerning protected areas, so that in the case of > invertebrates, which are largely unworked in India, accredited research > workers like Dr. Kunte should have the leeway or permission to take > specimens of scientifically important taxa which they might come across by > chance in the course of their study and deposit it with the officer in > charge of the protected area, who should in turn send it along to the Forest > ResearchInstitue in Dehra Dun to be included in the National Collection. > Everyone would be well served that way... > > On Wed, 28 Jul 2010 13:28:12 +0530 wrote > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I totally agree. This is something that should be completely left to the > experts. When I say experts, I mean field entomologists who have permissions > for collection and those who know how to preserve those specimens > and who indeed have expertise in identifying them at the level of Genitalia > or say Genome. > > > In South India, where I visited many entomological departments, the > collections are not only incomplete, but very badly maintained and some > of the specimens are wrongly identified and many of them were not even > identified !!! > > > Butterfly collection requires lot more dedication and passion and I > certainly don't think the general butterfly enthusiasts will be interested > in this. Of course, there will be many who will blatantly reject the idea of > collection without even realising the importance of it. > > > Although I totally agree that we should work towards creating a complete > well-maintained collection, I still do not agree that collection is the only > authentic way for identification. If you carefully observe any species in > the field for decent amount of time, you will see a pattern which will > differentiate it from other closer species, sub-species and races. And also > there will be some unique feature in their body as well. I mean assuming > that a particular sub-species or race separated out during evolution, it > would have got exposed to relatively different set of environment and this > would reflect both in their behavior and as some unique feature in their > body. We should be patient enough to recognize these subtle differences. > But, yes this would take lot more time to confirm/associate any unique > behavior or feature with a species, but it is not impossible. > > > So, a complete collection backed by lot of field studies would be key in > conserving those species. > > Coming to the set of species that you mentioned, I am sure Dr. Kunte can > distinguish them with very high accuracy from their photos. He has done it > for Pantoporia hordonia and P. sandaka. I myself has sent couple of photos > sometime back to this group, on how we can easily distinguish Polyura > athamas and P. agraria. I also sometime back sent the keys for > distinguishing Euploea core and sylvester, again just using pattern of > white spots on them. Although, I have to catch and release hundreds of them > to confirm this distinguising feature, but it does exist. > > > Ideal situation would be to set up a small team of experts who visit all > the national parks and properly collect and ID and make it available to > general public. Once we have this in place, general butterfly enthusiasts > can visit these places and do lot of field studies to identify a unique > behavior and feature for each species. Once we have all this properly > archived, we can do away with collection. > > > I heard IISc is already doing DNA sequencing for butterflies. I wrote to > one of the students but did not get any reply. > > In any case, the kind of website that I was talking about will still help > at large for less confusing species and definitely for my migratory ones!!! > > Kishen > > On Sun, Jul 25, 2010 at 1:06 PM, Peter Smetacek wrote: > > > > > > > Kishen, taxonomy tends to change down the line: eg., it is nearly > impossible to separate information gathered for Pantoporia hordonia and P. > sandaka; Polyura athamas and P. agraria, Psilogramma menephron and P. > increta, etc, etc. It is always better to have specimens to examine. That > way, no matter which way taxonomy progresses, the data gathered is never > lost. None of our national collections of Lepidoptera is complete, or, > indeed, near complete. Lots of work needs to be done and to ensure > scientific reliability, if it is specimen based, it will be irrefutable. > Photos are useful up to a point, but not in a country where the Lepidoptera > are as imperfectly known as ours... > > > On Sun, 25 Jul 2010 08:40:27 +0530 wrote > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think this project is restricted to Europe and UK. > It would be good if we can create an online database, where anyone can log > in and report their sightings. ( Of course these sightings should be backed > up by photos and also some expert to look into the data) > > Probably once there is an establishment of genuinity of sightings by a > particular person, then the expert can relax submitting the photos for all > the species ( I mean except for the difficult to ID or rare ones). > > > > On the long run it will help in better understading the distribution and > diversity of our regions. > I talked to couple of people but it did not work out. > Probably I will have this once I have my own website, at least for > migratory ones to start with. > > > Kishen > > > On Mon, Jul 19, 2010 at 1:52 AM, Priyadarsanan Dharma Rajan wrote: > > > > > > > > > From: Entomology Discussion List [mailto:[email protected]] On > Behalf Of Neil Jones > > > Sent: 16 July 2010 22:21 > To: [email protected] > Subject: David Attenborough will be doing it - will you? > > > > > > > > > From: Louise Keeling > Sent: 09 July 2010 16:34 > To: All Staff > Subject: David Attenborough will be doing it - will you? > > > Butterflies are both beautiful and vital to the health of our environment. > > > Their survival is crucial yet they are in serious decline. > > Be part of the big butterfly count from the 24th July to the 1st of August > this year and help us gather information to save them. > > Just find a place where you might see butterflies, such as a garden or > park, and count the different butterflies you see in just 15 minutes. You > can make counts in several places during the week. > > > > Submit your sightings at www.bigbutterflycount.org and you'll receive 10 > per cent off plants when you shop online at M&S. * > > > Butterflies are disappearing fast and we can’t help them without your > support. > > > See the website for details. > > Please forward this email to your friends of relatives - the more people > who join in, the more accurate a picture we can build of our changing > butterflies. > > > Thank you > > > *Terms and conditions apply. See www.marksandspencer.com/offers for > details. > > > > Lou Keeling > Senior Publicity Officer > [email protected] > > > > Join the big butterfly count and help us take the pulse of nature > > 24 July – 1 August at www.bigbutterflycount.org > > > > > > > > > > Butterfly Conservation > Manor Yard > East Lulworth > Wareham > Dorset BH20 5QP > Tel Direct: 01929 406005. Tel Reception: 01929 400209 Fax: 01929 400210 > > Company limited by guarantee, registered in England (2206468). Charity > registered in England Wales (254937) and in Scotland (SCO39268) > > ************************************************************************* > Butterfly Conservation is dedicated to saving butterflies, moths and the > environment. If you would like further information please view our website > at > > > > > Over 40 years of saving butterflies, moths and their habitats. > ************************************************************************* > The views and comments expressed in this email do not necessarily express > the views of Butterfly Conservation. > > > If you do not wish to receive any further information about the > conservation, campaigning and fundraising work of the Society please reply > to this email with the word 'unsubscribe' in the subject line. > > > ************************************************************************ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <http://sigads.rediff.com/RealMedia/ads/click_nx.ads/www.rediffmail.com/signatureline....@middle?> > > > -- Enjoy
