Jon Harrop wrote:
On Thursday 24 September 2009 13:39:40 Stefano Zacchiroli wrote:
On Thu, Sep 24, 2009 at 12:52:24PM +0100, Jon Harrop wrote:
The next steps are to get oc4mc into the apt repositories and build
Uhm, I'm curious: how do you plan to achieve that?
Good question. I have no idea, of course. :-)
That would be suicidal. I definitely do not want to belittle the work
of Philippe and his teammates -- what they did is an amazing hack
indeed --, but you need to keep in mind the difference between a
proof-of-concept experiment and a product.
In a proof-of-concept experiment, you implement the feature want to
experiment with and keep everything else as simple as possible
(otherwise there is little chance that you'll complete the
experiment). That's exactly what Philippe et al did, and rightly so:
their GC is about the simplest you can think of, they didn't bother
adapting some features of the run-time system, they target AMD64/Unix
only, etc. Now they have a platform they can experiment with and make
measurements on: mission accomplished.
In a product, you'd need something that is essentially a drop-off
replacement for today's OCaml and can run, say, Coq with at most a 10%
slowdown. That's a long way to go (I'd say a couple of years of work).
For example, single-generation stop-and-copy GC is known to have
terrible performance (both in running time and in latency) for
programs that have large data sets and allocate intensively. This is
true in the sequential case and even worse in a stop-the-world
parallel setting, by Amdahl's law. Note that the programs I mentioned
above are exactly those that the Caml user community cares most about
-- not matrix multiply nor ray tracers, Harrop's propaganda
notwithstanding -- and those for which OCaml has been delivering
top-class performance for the last 12 years -- again, Harrop's
propaganda notwithstanding.
On your way to a product, you'd need to independently-collectable
generations (which means some work on the compiler as well), plus a
parallel or even better concurrent major collector. And of course a
lot more work on the runtime system and C interface to make everything
truly reentrant while remaining portable. And probably some kind of
two-level scheduler for threads. And after all that work
you'd end up with an extremely low-level and unsafe parallel
programming model that you'd need to tame by developing clever
libraries that mere mortals can use effectively (Apple's Grand Central
was mentioned on this thread; it's a good example)...
In summary, Philippe and his coauthors do deserve a round of applause,
but please keep a cool head.
- Xavier Leroy
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