On Thursday, February 7, 2013 at 10:04 AM, Giovanni Bajo wrote:

> Il giorno 07/feb/2013, alle ore 15:35, "M.-A. Lemburg" <[email protected] 
> (mailto:[email protected])> ha scritto:
> 
> > On 07.02.2013 15:13, Giovanni Bajo wrote:
> > > Il giorno 07/feb/2013, alle ore 12:55, "M.-A. Lemburg" <[email protected] 
> > > (mailto:[email protected])> ha scritto:
> > > > > Can you please describe an attack that can be mounted against 
> > > > > PyPI/pip that is prevented by having this additional signature?
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > This is not about preventing some kind of attack. It's to simplify
> > > > the setup for the user of PyPI (via the package manager).
> > > > 
> > > > The user will no longer have to install several tens or even
> > > > hundreds of different uploader GPG keys locally just to be able
> > > > to verify the downloads. Instead, just the PyPI key is needed.
> > > > 
> > > > I think that's important to not disrupt the PyPI user experience.
> > > > 
> > > > Additionally, as already mentioned by Lennart, all the GPG interaction
> > > > could be handled by the package managers.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Yes, but *all* of the above requirements can be obtained by simply having 
> > > PyPI tell pip "key ABCD1234 is authoritative for package django". pip can 
> > > then tell GPG to go getting the key automatically from a first-party or 
> > > third-party keyserver (eg: launchpad).
> > > 
> > > I'm absolutely *not* suggesting the user to go downloading tons of GPG 
> > > keys manually. 
> > 
> > I don't think anyone would want to have pip installing hundreds
> > of PyPI uploader GPG keys locally, even less so, if just one is
> > enough :-)
> 
> 
> 
> OK so we need to both make happy Jesse that doesn't even want pip to run GPG 
> under the hood without him even realizing that gpg exists and is being used 
> as a crypto primitive, and you that want to keep a clean keychain that might 
> become too cluttered by too many keys :)
> 
> I'm sure Jesse doesn't care if the GPG keychain (which he doesn't even want 
> to have) becomes too cluttered, because he doesn't even want to learn how to 
> dump the keychain contents, or to install a GUI tool to inspect it. I think 
> this will be the case for the large majority of users that simpy run "apt-get 
> install gpg" once and then forget about it and go on with their normal pip 
> work (with a fully transparent level of additional security).
> 
It's less about keeping "me" happy: I'm fine with a model that if GPG exists, 
it's used, silently (not linked against in any way though in core Python - 
license incompatible). My concern is users needing to *use* and *understand* 
how to use GPG/OpenPGP - to quote someone:

"I'm really skeptical about the GPG parts of this. If "install GPG" is the 
first step of uploading a package to PyPI, I think a ton of people will just 
skip it. No matter how well-documented it is."  

There's some other discussion on the google doc some of us have been using to 
triage the current situation with pypi (send me a google id, and I'll share it) 
- I haven't had a chance to distill it into human form yet. 

jesse


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