On Sun, Mar 10, 2013 at 5:16 PM, Donald Stufft <don...@stufft.io> wrote: > If someones release process forces PyPI to have security, uptime, and privacy > issues then I'm very sorry but their release process is going to need to > change. It's not fun, it's a shitty situation, but trying to bend over > backwards to enable their current release processes is like trying to bend > over backwards to enable people to still walk into their banks vault and grab > a stack of currency.
When people in group 1 express disapproval of people in group 2, this creates a rallying effect among members of group 1, and a *negative* counter-reaction in members of group 2. This is effective if, and *only* if, the people in group 2 have less power in the situation than the people in group 1. For example, if co-operation from the people in group 2 are not needed in order to carry out the wishes of group 1. However, in the situation under discussion, such co-operation is required, which means an alternative motivational strategy is indicated. That strategy involves giving persons in group 2 a better reason to care than "because we in group 1 think you group 2 people are thieves." And by better, I mean, a reason that *benefits group 2*, and more specifically, each individual in group 2 who chooses to co-operate. And ideally, you work also to lower the cost of that co-operation. That's what *this* thread was originally about (lowering the cost of co-operation), before these "burn the witch" sentiments started up again. So, why not just step aside and let the adults go back to working on the actual problem? Just kidding, of course. ;-) That's an example of me using the same type of communication style, in the opposite direction: spewing disapproval at something I don't like, instead of giving you a reason that benefits *you*, to do what I want. See how it feels, going the other direction? Did it motivate you to be helpful? I'm guessing not. ;-) Anyway, my point is this: people don't like it one bit when you tell them what to do. If you tell them, "you must do X", you get resistance. But if you offer them a choice, "Are you going to do X or Y?", there's much less resistance. And if one choice is less convenient than the other, most will pick the easier choice. So, would you rather fight with developers to make them do it your way, or have most of them do exactly what you want and most of the rest get pretty close, but not have to fight with them about it? Right now, the impression you and certain other people are giving me is that it is more important that whatever action we take be seen as censuring the practice of off-PyPI hosting, than that we actually fix the problems! And it's difficult to take such a position seriously, because the post-hoc rationalization of harms is, well, unconvincing at best to a neutral party. When PyPI was first built, it didn't *have* hosting, so there was nothing morally wrong about off-site hosting then. And when hosting was first added, automated downloading didn't exist yet, either. So it still wasn't wrong. And when I added automated downloading, I made the choice to encourage people to collaborate by making it as easy as possible. So offsite hosting still wasn't wrong, in fact it was a documented alternative. And that's been the case for, oh, 8 years now? So what you're actually doing isn't crusading against evil-doers, it's more like saying that every restaurant that isn't McDonalds should be immediately remodeled, because you have just noticed the shocking trend that hardly any of those restaurants will serve you food as quickly! And that of course, the restaurant owners should undertake the remodeling and procedure changes, retraining, retooling, etc. at *their* expense, on *your* timeline. Just so that *you*, who *chose to visit those restaurants in the first place*, can get your food a bit more quickly. Sure, I know that's not how *you* see it. But surely you can see that's how the *restaurant owners* are going to see it. And if you want them to co-operate, it's probably going to be in your interest to focus your attention on their side of the equation, rather than on yours. You already agree with your point of view. They don't. I realize that can be difficult to do when you have strong feelings about a subject. For example, as I write this I keep backing up and deleting all sorts of unhelpful things I find myself wanting to say. ;-) And I'm doing that because I'm consciously reminding myself that *getting to a solution* is more important to me than *making you feel bad* for being "wrong on the internet". What's more important to you? The *actual* state of PyPI, or the state of who is to be considered right or wrong? If it's the former, you would probably find it useful to your goals, to please refrain from calling me and that other 10% of PyPI thieves. Or really any other names whatsoever, explicitly OR implicitly. Thanks. _______________________________________________ Catalog-SIG mailing list Catalog-SIG@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/catalog-sig