Sorry to take this thread on a detour/diversion: What I was attempting
to point out below, perhaps unclearly, is that the different
interpretations of the word "redundant" are a cultural difference. As a
student of multiple English languages perhaps I can explain:
Few US English speakers know that in UK/European/Australian English the
word "redundant" has a strong negative connotation. I, for one, was
surprised to learn that the phrase "made redundant" is used in the UK to
describe loss of employment. That is, a layoff, firing or perhaps a
furlough. So, I think it important to spell out for my fellow US English
speakers that the emotional ties to this negative connotation can be
strong ones.
Conversely, many UK English speakers do not know that in US English the
word "redundant" has a strong positive connotation. We never use the
phrase "made redundant" to describe a lost job. Most Americans I think
would be confused by such a turn of phrase. If a US English speaker was
told their jobs was "made redundant" they would most likely think that a
new hire was onboarded to back them up. This would imply that their job
was so important that the company wanted at least two people doing it,
just in case you got hit by a bus. This strong positive connotation also
has emotional roots.
Personally, I prefer the positive connotation. Perhaps that is my
cultural bias, or perhaps I just generally believe that positivity is
better than negativity. Maybe I'm just a "nice" guy. The meaning of the
word "nice" has changed enormously over the last few hundred years, and
I don't think we're going to change that any more than we are going to
change the meaning of "redundant" in these two major forms of English.
However, just because a word has slightly different meanings in two
slightly different languages does not mean we should abandon it. Are we
going to stop eating "chips" just because we are not sure if our fried
potato will come as sliced wedges or thin crispy wafers? If you are
unhappy with your meal, is it the fault of the culture you are visiting?
or the customer for forgetting where they are? Context is everything.
So, for those unfamiliar with one or more of the major English-speaking
cultures, here are a few other important differences to be aware of:
"Football" may not be the game you think it is.
If you are offered a "biscuit" in the US, do not expect it to be sweet.
If you want to leave a building you should take the "lift" to the
"ground floor", but if you take an "elevator" get off on the "1st floor".
A "dummy" is a pacifier for a baby in the UK/Australia, but in the US it
only means an unintelligent person, or a plastic replica of one.
"please" and "thank you" are considered baseline politeness in some
English cultures, but their excessive use in others, such as the US, can
be seen as rude.
A "tap" in the US dispenses beer, water comes out of a "faucet".
A "flat" in the US is not a place to live, but rather where we test
rocket cars.
"Gas" can be a liquid in the US.
"Rubber" is a substance in both languages, but in the US a lump of it
meant for erasing pencil marks is an "eraser". Do not ask for a "rubber"
at the shop unless you are sure which country you are in.
A "holiday" in the US is a special day on the calendar when everyone
gets off work, not just when an individual takes a "vacation".
If you go walking down the "pavement" you are risking getting hit by a
car in the US, because that is what we call the road bed, not the
"sidewalk".
A "torch", is a handheld electric light in the UK, but in the US it is a
flaming stick of wood.
A "queue" is a line of people in the UK, but in the US it is known only
to computer scientists submitting jobs on a cluster.
Then there are words like "capillary", which means the same thing in
both languages but the alternate pronunciations never fail to enrage
someone. It is perhaps odd that since US English and UK English are
spoken with many different accents we pronounce essentially every word
at least slightly differently, but for some reason "capillary" makes
people angry. Same with "schedule". Equally emotional responses arise
from how you pronounce the letter "z". Go figure.
Similar ire is risen for spelling. My favourite/favorite is
aluminum/aluminium, but equally divisive are colour/color, tire/tyre,
cheque/check, gray/grey, theatre/theater, pyjamas/pajamas, and many others.
It is at this stage when you will find people of another culture trying
to "correct" you on how to speak or write your own language. This can be
confusing because you will probably not be corrected for calling a
"courgette" a "zucchini", especially if you are Italian. However, a
native Hindi speaker might feel compelled to correct your pronunciation
of "shampoo". I am not singling out any one culture here, we have all
given in to the temptation to "correct" someone, perhaps even while
visiting their home. Ahh, the errors of my youth.
All that said, I don't think this forum is the place to discuss cultural
differences. This is especially true once we start using words like
"correct"/"incorrect" and "right"/"wrong", as these tend to generate far
more heat than light. However, I do think it important to identify and
describe cultural differences when they start to impede scientific
discussion. It is OK to disagree. But let it be over interpretation of
complete information that both parties possess, not preconceived notions
nor ignorance of the complete picture. If we understand WHY another
person thinks in a way we find disagreeable, then perhaps we have a
better chance of moving forward and enjoying the upcoming celebrations
of Independence/GoodRiddanceUngratefulColonials Day.
Whatever you call it, an eggplant or an an aubergine, its odour/odor and
flavour/flavor are the same. I apologize/apologise to my
neighbours/neighbors across the Lake/Pond for my behaviour/behavior if
you are not enamoured/enamored with my endeavour/endeavor at
humor/humour. It is not my specialty/speciality. fullstop/period.
-James Holton
MAD Scientist
On 6/29/2020 3:36 PM, Bernhard Rupp wrote:
I think it is time to escalate that discussion to crystallographic
definition purists like Massimo or to a logical consistency proponent
like Ian who abhors definitional vacuum 😊
Cheers, BR
*From:* CCP4 bulletin board <CCP4BB@JISCMAIL.AC.UK> *On Behalf Of
*Andreas Förster
*Sent:* Monday, June 29, 2020 15:24
*To:* CCP4BB@JISCMAIL.AC.UK
*Subject:* Re: [ccp4bb] number of frames to get a full dataset?
I like to think that the reflections I carefully measured at high
multiplicity are not redundant, which the dictionary on my computer
defines as "not or no longer needed or useful; superfluous" and the
American Heritage Dictionary as "exceeding what is necessary or
natural; superfluous" and "needlessly repetitive; verbose".
Please don't use the term Needless repetitivity in your Table 1. It
sends the wrong message. Multiplicity is good.
All best.
Andreas
On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 12:03 AM James Holton <jmhol...@lbl.gov
<mailto:jmhol...@lbl.gov>> wrote:
I have found that the use of "redundancy" vs "multiplicity"
correlates very well with the speaker's favorite processing
software. The Denzo/HKL program scalepack outputs "redundancy",
whereas scala/aimless and other more Europe-centric programs
output "multiplicity".
At least it is not as bad as "intensity", which is so ambiguous as
to be almost useless as a word on its own.
-James Holton
MAD Scientist
On 6/24/2020 10:27 AM, Bernhard Rupp wrote:
> Oh, and some of us prefer the word 'multiplicity' ;-0
Hmmm…maybe not. ‘Multiplicity’ in crystallography is context
sensitive, and not uniquely defined. It can refer to
1. the position multiplicity (number of equivalent sites per
unit cell, aka Wyckoff-Multiplicity), the only (!) cif use
of multiplicity
2. the multiplicity of the reflection, which means the
superposition of reflections with the same /d/ (mostly
powder diffraction)
3. the multiplicity of observations, aka redundancy.
While (a) and (b) are clearly defined, (c) is an arbitrary
experimental number.
How from (a) real space symmetry follows (b) in reciprocal
space (including the epsilon zones, another ‘multiplicity’) is
explained here
https://scripts.iucr.org/cgi-bin/paper?a14080
and also on page 306 in BMC.
Too much multiplicity might create duplicity…
Cheers, BR
Jon Cooper
On 23 Jun 2020 22:04, "Peat, Tom (Manufacturing, Parkville)"
<tom.p...@csiro.au <mailto:tom.p...@csiro.au>> wrote:
I would just like to point out that for those of us who
have worked too many times with P1 or P21 that even 360
degrees will not give you 'super' anomalous differences.
I'm not a minimalist when it comes to data- redundancy is
a good thing to have.
cheers, tom
Tom Peat
Proteins Group
Biomedical Program, CSIRO
343 Royal Parade
Parkville, VIC, 3052
+613 9662 7304
+614 57 539 419
tom.p...@csiro.au <mailto:tom.p...@csiro.au>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
*From:*CCP4 bulletin board <CCP4BB@JISCMAIL.AC.UK
<mailto:CCP4BB@JISCMAIL.AC.UK>> on behalf of
00000c2488af9525-dmarc-requ...@jiscmail.ac.uk
<mailto:00000c2488af9525-dmarc-requ...@jiscmail.ac.uk>
<00000c2488af9525-dmarc-requ...@jiscmail.ac.uk
<mailto:00000c2488af9525-dmarc-requ...@jiscmail.ac.uk>>
*Sent:* Wednesday, June 24, 2020 1:10 AM
*To:* CCP4BB@JISCMAIL.AC.UK <mailto:CCP4BB@JISCMAIL.AC.UK>
<CCP4BB@JISCMAIL.AC.UK <mailto:CCP4BB@JISCMAIL.AC.UK>>
*Subject:* Re: [ccp4bb] number of frames to get a full
dataset?
Someone told me there is a cubic space group where you can
get away with something like 11 degrees of data. It would
be interesting if that's correct. These minimum ranges for
data collection rely on the crystal being pre-oriented,
which is unheard-of these days, although they can help if
someone is nagging you to get off the beam line or if your
diffraction fades quickly. Going for 180 degrees always
makes sense for a well-behaved crystal, or 360 degrees if
you want super anomalous differences. Hope this helps a bit.
Jon Cooper
On 23 Jun 2020 07:29, Andreas Förster
<andreas.foers...@dectris.com
<mailto:andreas.foers...@dectris.com>> wrote:
Hi Murpholino,
in my opinion (*), the question is neither number of
frames nor degrees. The only thing that matters to
your crystal is dose. How many photons does your
crystal take before it dies? Consequently, the
question to ask is How best to use photons. Some
people have done exactly that.
https://doi.org/10.1107/S2059798319003528
All best.
Andreas
(*) Disclaimer: I benefit when you use PILATUS or
EIGER - but I want you to use them to your advantage.
On Tue, Jun 23, 2020 at 12:04 AM Murpholino Peligro
<murpholi...@gmail.com <mailto:murpholi...@gmail.com>>
wrote:
Hi.
Quick question...
I have seen *somewhere* that to get a 'full
dataset we need to collect n frames':
at least 180 frames if symmetry is X
at least 90 frames if symmetry is Y
at least 45 frames if symmetry is Z
Can somebody point where is *somewhere*?
...also...
what other factors can change n... besides
symmetry and radiation damage?
Thanks
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