Thinking about it some more, I think all the materials (patentable IP or
trade secrets, which in the US are IP and under Defense of Trade Secrets
Act) of a researcher are owned by the university. So just getting across
tech transfer/IP of individual univs would be a massive hurdle before
thinking of being able to upload grants proposals for sharing.
And funding agencies would first also have to negotiate (and convince) with
all univs to allow it, even if somehow taxpayers and funding agencies could
be first convinced about the need or value in doing this. In fact, in that
scenario, there would actually be no need for a new system to share
proposals. All funding agencies just have to open up a portal to access
submitted grants (and I'm quite sure the agencies already have massive
security around hacking attempts to access all this material).
Cheers,
Debanu
On Mon, Jun 27, 2022 at 11:58 AM Debanu Das <debanu....@gmail.com> wrote:
> Dear John,
>
> For sure it is an aspiration as a society and as a civilization: to think
> beyond individual nations. And for that we have some examples as you
> mentioned at the scientific (IUCr, PDB) and political level (UN). We also
> have the EU, ASEAN, NATO, etc.
>
> However, despite having these organizations, I think even within most of
> them, for critical strategic information that dictates competitiveness and
> preparation, sharing is restricted to within the group (at least for the
> political ones). For that matter, even individual agencies within countries
> often have restrictions in data and materials sharing.
>
> I think if we solve the issue of national competitiveness, social
> inequality, etc first, we will not even have to discuss if there could be
> issues openly and globally sharing grant proposals. I guess the counter
> proposal could be made that maybe more sharing of more information will
> eventually lead to equity everywhere (which to some extent is reflected in
> the open sharing of publications).
>
> But for now, I think there are practicality hurdles to cross on these,
> which is why I mentioned "workable" in my initial response. Just in the
> last few years, we have seen examples of more and more focus on IP theft,
> computer hacking to steal research data from organizations and companies,
> more focus on ensuring confidentiality of the peer review process, and
> computer security to avoid leaks of material, and so on.
>
> Not trying to be cynical here, I think it is great for us as a community
> to always have an eye on a larger and nobler purpose while working within
> current practicalities and frameworks.
>
> Thank you.
>
> Best regards,
> Debanu
>
> On Mon, Jun 27, 2022 at 11:18 AM John R Helliwell <jrhelliw...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Dear Debanu,
>> There is indeed much at stake here.
>> Would I do it now, share my proposals, No.
>> Would I do it if funders’ rules required it. Yes.
>> When might funders’ rules require it eg when Tax payers insist that the
>> priority is achieving societal goals asap. Might that happen in the
>> foreseeable future? I don’t think so because we are as scientists good at
>> thinking so far out of the box, such as the internet, or from the 19the
>> century electricity and magnetism, the tax payer sees the benefit of an
>> individual’s curiosity driven research.
>> The bigger point is can we also think beyond individual nations?
>> We know we can: the UN, International Council for Science, IUCr……
>> So, it probably isn’t a one size fits all idea that James has put forward…
>> Best wishes,
>> John
>>
>>
>>
>> Emeritus Professor John R Helliwell DSc
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 27 Jun 2022, at 19:03, Debanu Das <debanu....@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>> >So, 2nd question is: would you do it? Would you upload your application
>> >into the public domain for all to see? What about the reviewer comments?
>> >If not, why not? Afraid people will steal your ideas? Well, once
>> >something is public, its pretty clear who got the idea first.
>>
>> I do not think this ("upload your application into the public domain for
>> all to see") is a workable or desirable idea for a variety of reasons.
>> There are far greater issues that just about getting credit for your ideas.
>> Which is somewhat of an academic and personal pursuit.
>>
>> For one, the entire R&D paradigm and programs and IP of entire nations
>> (which seems primarily would be the US and potentially some EU countries
>> under this case who if at all choose to sign up for this), universities,
>> companies (business grants) and funding agencies will wreak havoc (~30-40%
>> of US GDP). We already know there is a lopsided distribution of which
>> countries taxpayers are funding major IP & innovation. So there are major
>> economic, political, social and national competitiveness aspects at stake.
>> I doubt that even NSF, DoD, DOE, NIH/HHS or any other government funding
>> agency will support such initiatives. Transparency and openness in
>> publishing research is a different ball game, even though there too there
>> are lopsided effects at the end in many cases, but overall good for world
>> progress, hopefully.
>>
>> Best,
>> Debanu
>>
>> On Wed, Jun 22, 2022 at 6:09 PM James Holton <jmhol...@lbl.gov> wrote:
>>
>>> Greetings all,
>>>
>>> I'd like to ask a question that I expect might generate some spirited
>>> discussion.
>>>
>>> We have seen recently a groundswell of support for openness and
>>> transparency in peer review. Not only are pre-prints popular, but we are
>>> also seeing reviewer comments getting published along with the papers
>>> themselves. Sometimes even signed by the reviewers, who would have
>>> traditionally remained anonymous.
>>>
>>> My question is: why don't we also do this for grant proposals?
>>>
>>> I know this is not the norm. However, after thinking about it, why
>>> wouldn't we want the process of how funding is awarded in science to be
>>> at least as transparent as the process of publishing the results? Not
>>> that the current process isn't transparent, but it could be more so.
>>> What if applications, and their reviewer comments, were made public?
>>> Perhaps after an embargo period? There could be great benefits here.
>>> New investigators especially, would have a much clearer picture of
>>> format, audience, context and convention. I expect unsuccessful
>>> applications might be even more valuable than successful ones. And yet,
>>> in reality, those old proposals and especially the comments almost never
>>> see the light of day. Monumental amounts of work goes into them, on both
>>> sides, but then get tucked away into the darkest corners of our hard
>>> drives.
>>>
>>> So, 2nd question is: would you do it? Would you upload your application
>>> into the public domain for all to see? What about the reviewer comments?
>>> If not, why not? Afraid people will steal your ideas? Well, once
>>> something is public, its pretty clear who got the idea first.
>>>
>>> 3rd question: what if the service were semi-private? and you got to get
>>> comments on your proposal before submitting it to your funding agency?
>>> Would that be helpful? What if in exchange for that service you had to
>>> review 2-3 other applications? Would that be worth it?
>>>
>>> Or, perhaps, I'm being far too naiive about all this. For all I know
>>> there are some rules against doing this I'm not aware of. Either way,
>>> I'm interested in what this community thinks. Please share your views!
>>> On- or off-list is fine.
>>>
>>> -James Holton
>>> MAD Scientist
>>>
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