I'm not familiar with that group, but I'll try to look at them.
"Patient-centered" sounds like it might address some of the problems I
was just talking about. I myself was talking about the standards put
out by professional groups, stuff like this:

http://www.guidelines.gov/syntheses/synthesis.aspx?id=16427

http://www.guidelines.gov/syntheses/synthesis.aspx?id=16405

I discovered while looking for an example that there's a .gov site
that gathers them. I suppose this is a first step to rationalizing the
process. And probably, in most cases, a good guideline will improve
outcomes. The process needs to be responsive enough to deal with the
situations I describes above though, not an easy goal for a big
system.



On Sun, Sep 25, 2011 at 10:45 AM, Gruss Gott <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> All good points, and this is why doctors don't like the governments ideas of 
> "accountable care" organizations.
>
> I have my own example too where i was told by my PCP and a specialist that 
> condition X could not be controlled with action Y.  Then I proved them both 
> wrong.
>
> That said I would still say what's important is that they advise and start 
> with the NCQA best practices.  If a patient wants to deviate, fine, but 
> document it and document why.
>
>
>
> On Sep 25, 2011, at 2:28 AM, Dana <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>
>> I'm not convinced that suckage folllows. I don't want to get into the
>> specifics of my example on the spidered internet, but look at the
>> range of treatment options for high blood pressure, diabetes and high
>> cholesterol. For example. That's a big chunk of preventable illness
>> there, but there could be good reasons to treat those particular
>> conditions with anything from heavy-duty meds with serious possible
>> side effects to a diet and exercise program.  And the deciding factors
>> are all n the patient side : will they really change their diet? Are
>> they more afraid of the condition, or of the side effects? Do they
>> believe that they themselves have the power to make a difference? Will
>> they actually fill the prescription? I'm not an expert on these
>> conditions as I don't have them, but I imagine that there are
>> measurable data points as well... how high is the cholesterol, what's
>> the family history.... but look at how much the other factors matter.
>>
>> The *are* situations where standards of care are appropriate. The
>> author of that book -- a Harvard medical professor btw -- mentions
>> heart attacks at the ER. I've said before myself that I almost prefer
>> to see a physician's assistant or nurse practitioner for primary care.
>> They tend to be less harried and to listen better and I'm pretty sure
>> a lot of them are in fact methodically going down a list. That's how I
>> got scheduled for a sleep study, which did me vast amounts of good.
>>
>> However. If the standard of care for a condition is x, and *then* a
>> study comes out saying that in a couple of hundred patients followed
>> for five years, x turned out to cause serious injury in oh half the
>> patients, and yet did no better than a placebo, I really really want
>> my doctor to not be afraid of telling me that lest he or she get a
>> black mark for deviating from the standard of care. Because they would
>> be of course, if the academy of whatever has not yet held a committee
>> meeting on the subject.
>>
>> That said, perhaps there's an algorithm that takes all this into
>> account? But I suspect that there are too many unknowns from the
>> doctor's point of view.
>>
>> I strongly suggest you take a look at that analysis when you get a
>> chance. I found it quite thoughtful and quite damning.
>>
>> Dana
>>
>>
>> On Sat,ep 24, 2011 at 11:36 PM, Gruss Gott <[email protected]> wrote
>>>
>>> Oh, and definitely docs should be measured on how they well follow 
>>> diagnosis and treatment best practices, I.e. "quality".  If they work 
>>> outside of them, then the measure is on outcomes.
>>>
>>> Who wants to go to a doc that doesn't follow industry best practices for 
>>> diagnosis and treatment and who's outcomes suck?
>>> On Sep 24, 2011, at 11:46 PM, Dana <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> meh. I read it. The main point seemed to be that someone might lose a
>>>> laptop. That's a valid concern but it's not specific to the federal
>>>> government. I'm not entirely sure that the Examiner reporter read the
>>>> regulation. I have pretty high tolerance for wonkish stuff, and  I have to
>>>> say that my eyes glazed over...But here's what I got out of a skim:
>>>>
>>>> There's a concern that insurers will have many new patients with deferred
>>>> medical issues which will increase insurer risk for a few years, They are
>>>> proposing a reinsurance program, how heinous ;) It also looks like they're
>>>> suggesting that some insurers could use technical support for data analysis
>>>> as well. And if they're going to spend money they want to be able to audit
>>>> the programs that get it. I would too.
>>>>
>>>> The Examiner seems to be up in arms about the feds looking at data, but
>>>> yanno... they already do have the very large datasets from Medicaid and
>>>> Medicare. They are asking for comment on how best to handle this. The nerve
>>>> of them ;)  They also say that although HIPPA does not strictly apply they
>>>> want to use it as a standard anyway. Like everyone else in the medical 
>>>> field
>>>> does, or perhaps should would be a better word.
>>>>
>>>> What I don't see is any indication that they're proposing to go through
>>>> patient charts and line by line require justification for each expenditure.
>>>> You know. Like your current insurance does?
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Sep 23, 2011 at 10:02 PM, Gruss Gott <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> All provider claims for risk adjusted Medicare advantage are currently
>>>>> submitted to CMS's RAPS system, but it only requires 5 fields.  Soon they
>>>>> will be getting full 837 claims via the new EDPS system.
>>>>>
>>>>> It's very common to run analytics on this data for purposes of finding
>>>>> under treated patients.  You can even power campaigns by using the lack of
>>>>> data.  For example, no physical therapy claim after knee surgery, or no
>>>>> vasodilator if the patient is HCC 16 (diabetes w vascular complications), 
>>>>> or
>>>>> even simply no PCP visit this year.
>>>>>
>>>>> In other words, seems like the government already has this data, however
>>>>> given their historical expertise in manipulating it I wouldn't be too
>>>>> worried.
>>>>>
>>>>> That said I didn't read the link :)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sep 23, 2011, at 10:00 PM, Robert Munn <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> cool, thanks!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Fri, Sep 23, 2011 at 7:49 PM, Judah McAuley <[email protected]>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I don't think this is accurate. I glanced at the rule when it was
>>>>>>> proposed and there hasn't been any uproar in the medical world that
>>>>>>> I've seen, so I'm dubious. But I don't know for certain. I'll do some
>>>>>>> investigation and try to reply back here in a couple days.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Judah
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
> 

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