mmmmmm maybe. I do hear that the police have a side of the story too, and I am not overlooking that. But as PT said -- they are also the police. They have riot gear. Sure it must suck when someone gets blue paint on your uniform, which did happen at one point in Oakland, and which some people said crossed the line. But they have weapons. And shields. And are getting paid to be there. They are also the people who have the power to determine many of the outcomes.
I kinda agree that there are probably some professional activists behind this movement and that at least in Oakland they maybe were looking for police brutality from the start, so they could make an issue of it. The slick videos edited in a similar manner, highlighting the pepper spray canister in New York, the flash-bang in Oakland. The rather good organization. And I suspect that the activists will go on to another issue after this. Sure. I have no doubt that Occupy Santa Cruz is full of the same people who had a sleep-in and a smoke-in on the courthouse lawn last year. Kinda the underside of the hippy movement. A lot of that is just that it's Santa Cruz. BUT. That does not mean that those activists or the people joining up are not sincere. Or, especially, it does not mean that they do not have a point. Nobody had a weapon to that cop's head when he threw a stun grenade. The officer that pepper-sprayed three women kneeling on the sidewalk was a commander. So what does that tell you? This sort of stuff is perceived to be ok. Has always *been* ok. The subway police keep shooting unarmed men. Everyone is outraged when a cop rams a pretty white teenager with his motorcycle, but the homies expect it. Back in Albuquerque a professional, a lawyer my age, assured me that unprovoked violence is pretty much the norm if you're young, speak Spanish and somebody thinks you're suspicious. Oakland has extra shades of "colored" is all. The violence is there. That's not a made-up issue. Maybe a few coeds, irreproachable Marines and little old ladies needed to get arrested to make a point. This does happen if you overstep your bounds. Nice middle-class people don't usually run into them is all, but the system *is violent. And black men getting hurt in Oakland doesn't make the news or make anyone say huh, what were they thinking? And I do wonder what they were thinking in many of these incidents. I want it not to be "dirtbag hippies, get out of my sight. Stop making me question my actions." Of course I say this as a constitutional peasant :) "I mean, if I went 'round saying I was an emperor just because some moistened bint had lobbed a scimitar at me, they'd put me away! " (and I am amused that someone thought it needed subtitles) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dOOTKA0aGI0 As for the organized nature of the protests, well, I rather applaud the organization. These encampments were being called chaotic a week or two ago. A neighborhood watch may not be a bad thing. Yes, the group seems to determine ahead of time who is willing to get arrested, and I gather that the meetings are probably facilitated in some way. But isn't that better really? Some people are willing to get arrested as an act of civil disobedience, and some people are not. So... in some ways, if they have found a way to make that work better, I say good. As long as they stick to organizing, I have no quarrel with organizers being present. Yet, anyway. Doesn't mean I'm on my way over there to be a good soldier, but I wasn't paying attention before and now I am. BTW I am not sure I agree that violence was inevitable. San Jose is small, but they've managed to avoid ugliness. Oakland seems to have reached a truce. Of course, that didn't make the news -- maybe that's the real issue, hmm? On Mon, Oct 31, 2011 at 6:25 AM, GMoney <gm0n3...@gmail.com> wrote: > > These things always follow a predictable course. > > Get a bunch of protestors together. > Call it peaceful. > Eventually police have to start arriving to make sure everything is OK. > Police and protestors coexist for awhile. > Then the crows build to large levels. > Eventually, get enough people together in one place over a long enough > period of time, and things will start happening. > All it takes is one bad cop with an itchy trigger finger, and suddenly > you've got your flashpoint...and now all the cops are power hungry > fascists.. > > And...voila! You've got your sympathy. Those poor, poor > protestors...getting beaten and mangled by power hungry cops! The horror!!! > > Ugh. > > I sympathize with the INDIVIDUALS who have suffered, especially this > veteran, but as for the movement...fuck 'em. THEY are the ones who > sacrificed these guys in the name of getting attention. This outcome was > inevitable, and everyone knew it. > > What a stupid situation. > > On Sun, Oct 30, 2011 at 6:18 PM, Dana <dana.tier...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> >> esp to the face of a completely different person. Possibly tear gas >> got thrown back into police lines -- it does look that way on one >> video but not by the guy who's in the hospital. I found him on a third >> video, just standing next to the flag. Practicing civil disobedience. >> Bah. >> >> On Sun, Oct 30, 2011 at 3:51 PM, PT <cft...@gmail.com> wrote: >> > >> > Yeah, I can clearly see the flash-bang being tossed in. It is about the >> > right size and shape. I see it hit the ground and spark and sputter. >> > Some protesters notice and to to move, but then, BANG, it goes right off >> > at their feet. It is completely obvious what it is. >> > >> > Those things are kind of meant to be used in doors where the concussion >> > and light stun occupants long enough for them to be secured. All they >> > do outside is make people scatter for a few seconds. The risk of injury >> > from one exploding is more than any benefit in that kind of situation. >> > They might not be grenades, but they are explosive devices and the >> > police practically dropped one on the feet of the protesters. >> > >> > I am sure the police did feel threatened from time to time, but they can >> > suck it up. They are paid to be there and supposedly trained to handle >> > crowds without resorting to violence. They have helmets, body armor, >> > shields, face guards, shotguns, tazers, tear gas, batons and flash-bangs. >> > >> > If you throw tear gas at someone and they throw back the same canister >> > you so helpfully gave them, it does not warrant retaliation with a >> > shotgun blast to the face. Those less-lethal projectiles can, have and >> > will kill someone. No one should fire one of those weapons into an >> > unarmed crowd unless that person would be willing to use a live round in >> > the exact same situation. >> > >> > Police are not peace keepers. They are peace enforcers. Their mere >> > presence is already a threat display. Any overt acts of violence from >> > them are likely to be met with with the same. It might not be immediate >> > and might not be directed at the person committing the violence, but it >> > does increase the tension, anger and frustration in the general crowd. >> > If it builds up enough, someone is going to snap and then the flood >> > gates might open. >> > >> > I haven't been keeping track of what the officials have been doing, but >> > it seems like their attitudes have been a mixture of "shut them up", >> > "make them go away" and "I don't care about those people". Maybe if >> > someone would, you know, come out and directly address the protesters >> > and at least pretend to take their concerns seriously, it would go a >> > ways towards diffusing the situation. Shooing away frustrated people >> > with a lot of time on their hands is not solving a problem. Grow a pair >> > and use some of those leadership skills, eh? >> > >> > Hmm. Whatever happened to dogs and fire hoses? Are they passe? >> > >> > ----- >> > "Because I can lie beautiful true things into existence ..." >> > Neil Gaiman on Why I write. >> > >> > On 10/30/2011 5:59 PM, Dana wrote: >> >> >> >> yep there really is no question. You can see the -- whatever -- coming >> >> from the police lines. There is one place also (in fairness) where a >> >> teargas cannister gets thrown into police lines. But the ex-Marine >> >> that was hurt was not in that. He was just standing there next to the >> >> Veterans for Peace flag. Not yelling or anything. If you go through >> >> some of the youtube videos, you can see him on at least two different >> >> cameras. He failed to disperse, sure, apparently planned on being >> >> arrested, but otherwise did not provoke the police attack at all. >> >> >> >> And I think the video that showed how close they threw the flash-bang >> >> from was a local NBC affiliate's... they aren't exactly known for >> >> being stoner new agers. >> >> >> >> Still I want to be careful with my words. Some of the video can't be >> >> called unedited -- it has voiceover and a ring around particular >> >> police officers at a minimum. And this is true of footage of that >> >> flash-bang getting thrown in Oakland and of women getting >> >> pepper-sprayed in New York. But these videos make an accusation that >> >> really needs investigation and presumably that investigation would >> >> include a look at raw footage. I mean, look at the video. That girl in >> >> the orange top is screaming, and some of the guys run up, this after >> >> an order to disperse, ok, sure, but they are bending over the guy on >> >> the ground and not acting in a threatening manner at all. >> >> >> >> That Asian -- Filipino?-- woman's arrest made the front page of the >> >> San Jose paper, I just noticed, btw. The force is so disproportionate. >> >> One unarmed 90-pound woman, half a dozen police officers with batons. >> >> They were hitting her long after she was down, it looks like in the >> >> videos, and as best I can tell all she did before that was mouth off. >> >> Interestingly, several police officers were also filming, though, >> >> probably not that part -- they would have been more interested in >> >> documenting why they might feel threatened. So hey. They should make >> >> that footage public. That's what I say. I also wanna know why officer >> >> 327 felt he had to beat up a woman who does not appear to have fought >> >> back. Interesting side note, the resolution is good enough to confirm >> >> that he is on the Oakland force. That matters because Oakland police >> >> apparently have a protocol that was broken, and one question being >> >> raised was whether it would have applied to say a San Francisco police >> >> officer who was on loan. Apparently there were more than a dozen >> >> police forces participating. >> >> >> >> All in all, now that I *have* done some research I am dismayed and >> >> feel a little sick. >> > >> > >> >> > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-community/message.cfm/messageid:343815 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-community/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-community/unsubscribe.cfm
