-----Original Message-----
From: Jim Campbell [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 02 October 2003 15:52
To: CF-Community
Subject: Elections ( Was: CF Salary Range)
No kidding.
http://www.blackboxvoting.com/ <http://www.blackboxvoting.com/>
- Jim
Mark Smyth wrote:
>Come on lets be serious, honesty and elections don't really mix do they?
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Heald, Tim [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Sent: 02 October 2003 15:41
>To: CF-Community
>Subject: RE: CF Salary Range
>
>
>Well there is a risk of this, but there would have to be a system put in
>place to make it as honest as possible. Elections most certainly, at each
>level that decides the standard.
>
>There would need to also be some kind of baseline.
>
>How else could we do something that would allow us to standardize industry
>wide (without involving the gov't)?
>
>Maybe practical exams then. You have so long to create a basic task
>management system. Here's your requirements document, go. Then compare
>what they do against your benchmarks for speed and usability. Something
>would have to be written to cover architecture.
>
>Huh, I guess it probably would be pretty hopeless.
>
>I just hope the feds don't make up our minds for us.
>
>Timothy Heald
>Information Systems Manager
>Overseas Security Advisory Council
>U.S. Department of State
>571.345.2319
>
>The opinions expressed here do not necessarily reflect those of the U.S.
>Department of State or any affiliated organization(s). Nor have these
>opinions been approved or sanctioned by these organizations. This e-mail is
>unclassified based on the definitions in E.O. 12958.
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Saidi, Marwan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Sent: Thursday, October 02, 2003 10:40 AM
>To: CF-Community
>Subject: RE: CF Salary Range
>
>
>But Tim, any sort of peer review is subject to becoming a popularity
>contest. Maybe we don't like the thoughts of a particular person, so he/she
>doesn't get in, regardless of how well they can code.
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Heald, Tim [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Sent: Thursday, October 02, 2003 10:27 AM
>To: CF-Community
>Subject: RE: CF Salary Range
>
>
>See I think that has gone the wrong way. That's why I think peer review,
>and some kind of rank structure is very important. That way you weed out
>the losers.
>
>
>Timothy Heald
>Information Systems Manager
>Overseas Security Advisory Council
>U.S. Department of State
>571.345.2319
>
>The opinions expressed here do not necessarily reflect those of the U.S.
>Department of State or any affiliated organization(s). Nor have these
>opinions been approved or sanctioned by these organizations. This e-mail is
>unclassified based on the definitions in E.O. 12958.
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Kevin Graeme [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Sent: Thursday, October 02, 2003 10:02 AM
>To: CF-Community
>Subject: Re: CF Salary Range
>
>
>Yes and no. They did great things to protect every worker which benefitted
>the individual. But the approach is to make sure that everything is
>"equitable" by defining a common ground of pay and benefits for any worker
>who is part of the union. It's a set of rules that apply to everyone
>equally, and those rules may benefit individuals. But they also may also
>allow non-productive people to get the same benefits as hard workers.
>
>But without unions and the labor movement we wouldn't have weekends.
>
>-Kevin
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Mark Smyth" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: "CF-Community" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Sent: Thursday, October 02, 2003 8:40 AM
>Subject: RE: CF Salary Range
>
>
>
>
>>but wasn't the whole original ethos of unions to protect individuals
>>
>>
>workers
>
>
>>rights in the workplace?
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Deanna Schneider [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>Sent: 02 October 2003 14:37
>>To: CF-Community
>>Subject: Re: CF Salary Range
>>
>>
>>I would think that you would prefer no regulation. Unions don't exactly
>>promote individual liberties. They promote a very "socialized" way of
>>
>>
>life.
>
>
>>-d
>>
>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: "Heald, Tim" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>To: "CF-Community" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2003 12:57 PM
>>Subject: RE: CF Salary Range
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>A free grouping of people? This would bother a libertarian why?
>>>
>>>I admit that most modern unions have hurt not helped. There was a time
>>>
>>>
>>when
>>
>>
>>>they did very important work. Again remember this is free association,
>>>
>>>
>>not
>>
>>
>>>legislated action, and could be used to forestall some of the possible
>>>actions the government is consider taking to regulate it, specifically
>>>
>>>
>how
>
>
>>>it relates to security.
>>>
>>>Self regulation is always preferable to gov't regulation.
>>>
>>>Timothy Heald
>>>Information Systems Manager
>>>Overseas Security Advisory Council
>>>U.S. Department of State
>>>571.345.2319
>>>
>>>The opinions expressed here do not necessarily reflect those of the U.S.
>>>Department of State or any affiliated organization(s). Nor have these
>>>opinions been approved or sanctioned by these organizations. This e-mail
>>>
>>>
>>is
>>
>>
>>>unclassified based on the definitions in E.O. 12958.
>>>
>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>From: Deanna Schneider [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>>Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2003 10:51 AM
>>>To: CF-Community
>>>Subject: Re: CF Salary Range
>>>
>>>
>>>And a libertarian would be interested in a union? Um, why?
>>>----- Original Message -----
>>>From: "Heald, Tim" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>>To: "CF-Community" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>>Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2003 9:30 AM
>>>Subject: RE: CF Salary Range
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>A friend and I actually started talking about the idea of a union.
>>>>
>>>>
>You
>
>
>>>get
>>>
>>>
>>>>skill ratings by time in service, testing, and peer review.
>>>>
>>>>
>>Additionally
>>
>>
>>>>that would allow for a much more stable salary range I think. The
>>>>
>>>>
>down
>
>
>>is
>>
>>
>>>>that companies historically don't like unions, and would probably
>>>>
>>>>
>resist
>
>
>>>>hiring union programmers.
>>>>
>>>>Timothy Heald
>>>>Information Systems Manager
>>>>Overseas Security Advisory Council
>>>>U.S. Department of State
>>>>571.345.2319
>>>>
>>>>The opinions expressed here do not necessarily reflect those of the
>>>>
>>>>
>U.S.
>
>
>>>>Department of State or any affiliated organization(s). Nor have these
>>>>opinions been approved or sanctioned by these organizations. This
>>>>
>>>>
>
>
>>>is
>>>
>>>
>>>>unclassified based on the definitions in E.O. 12958.
>>>>
>>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>>From: Kwang Suh [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>>>Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2003 10:01 AM
>>>>To: CF-Community
>>>>Subject: RE: CF Salary Range
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>You're asking implementation. Think bigger picture: Can we protect
>>>>
>>>>
>IT
>
>
>>>jobs
>>>
>>>
>>>>in North America by having professional designations in the industry?
>>>>
>>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>>From: Kevin Graeme [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>>>Sent: October 1, 2003 7:50 AM
>>>>To: CF-Community
>>>>Subject: Re: CF Salary Range
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>You're overblowing it. Other professions have designations (and
>>>>>
>>>>>
>trust
>
>
>>>me,
>>>
>>>
>>>>a
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>CPA desig is not "mythical", no matter how you view it).
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>Alright, maybe I did engage in a little hyperbole, and you're right
>>>>
>>>>
>that
>
>
>>>>other professions have designations. So how do you see a designation
>>>>working? I have some questions:
>>>>
>>>>1. How will the designations be determined? Who decides?
>>>>2. How will people be evaluated? Will it involve going to an official
>>>>
>>>>
>>>office
>>>
>>>
>>>>or will it be a process that anyone authorized can administer?
>>>>3. Will there be a fee to get evaluated?
>>>>4. Who will perform the evaluations? Not just what organization, or
>>>>
>>>>
>what
>
>
>>>>process, but how many people will be involved in evaluating all the
>>>>
>>>>
>>>current
>>>
>>>
>>>>and potential IT workers? How will they be funded?
>>>>5. If it's process where anyone authorized can administer the
>>>>
>>>>
>>evaluation,
>>
>>
>>>>how does that authorization process happen?
>>>>6. Will all current IT workers be grandfathered in, or will they need
>>>>
>>>>
>to
>
>
>>>be
>>>
>>>
>>>>evaluated?
>>>>7. If they are grandfathered in, how is there designation determined
>>>>
>>>>
>for
>
>
>>>>further job changes?
>>>>8. If they need to be evaluated, what is the timeframe involved and
>>>>
>>>>
>what
>
>
>>>is
>>>
>>>
>>>>the incentive to employers to have their current, capable employees
>>>>evaluated if there is a chance the employees will not achieve the
>>>>appropriate designation for their current job?
>>>>9. How do people contest their designation? Is there going to be a
>>>>
>>>>
>>process
>>
>>
>>>>for that? Who oversees that process to ensure that favoritism doesn't
>>>>happen? How will those people be compensated for their time?
>>>>10. How do employers verify that potential applicants have been
>>>>
>>>>
>>>designated?
>>>
>>>
>>>>11. How will people who are self-taught know that they need to get a
>>>>designation? If it requires an ongoing awareness and promotion
>>>>
>>>>
>campaign,
>
>
>>>how
>>>
>>>
>>>>much will that cost and how will it be funded?
>>>>12. How will you ensure that people actually need the designation?
>>>>
>>>>
>Will
>
>
>>>>employers only be allowed to hire people with a designation? If no,
>>>>
>>>>
>then
>
>
>>>>will equally capable non-designated people have a legal recourse to
>>>>
>>>>
>>>contest
>>>
>>>
>>>>discrimination against them in the hiring process? If yes, how do you
>>>>propose to make it a requirement?
>>>>13. Once people have a designation, what happens as they continue to
>>>>
>>>>
>>>develop
>>>
>>>
>>>>professionally? Will the designation change to reflect that, and what
>>>>
>>>>
>is
>
>
>>>>involved to make the designation change?
>>>>14. If an employee has a designation, but an employer still doesn't
>>>>
>>>>
>feel
>
>
>>>>they can actually do the job, what happens? Can the employee appeal to
>>>>
>>>>
>>any
>>
>>
>>>>designating authority to determine whether the employer properly set
>>>>
>>>>
>the
>
>
>>>>expectations for a job function with a given designation? Are there
>>>>
>>>>
>any
>
>
>>>>protections for the worker at all after going through the process of
>>>>achieving a designation or is it only the employer who benefits during
>>>>
>>>>
>>the
>>
>>
>>>>hiring process?
>>>>15. Can a person's designation be revoked for any reason?
>>>>16. How much will designations cost the industry? Will candidates have
>>>>
>>>>
>>to
>>
>>
>>>>pay for testing? If so, how much?
>>>>17. Will designees have to pay ongoing dues? If so, how much?
>>>>18. Will employers have to pay to an industry oversight organization
>>>>
>>>>
>to
>
>
>>>fund
>>>
>>>
>>>>any of the designation process? If so, how much?
>>>>
>>>>Yes, other professions do have designations. They also have
>>>>
>>>>
>>bureaucracies
>>
>>
>>>to
>>>
>>>
>>>>manage them. I'm just wondering how much of a bureaucracy and the
>>>>
>>>>
>>>associated
>>>
>>>
>>>>costs you envision for your idea. Overall will it cost the industry
>>>>
>>>>
>more
>
>
>>>or
>>>
>>>
>>>>less than occasionally hiring and then firing a person with a puffed
>>>>
>>>>
>up
>
>
>>>>resume? I honestly don't pretend to know the answer to that. I'm
>>>>
>>>>
>asking.
>
>
>>>>-Kevin
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _____
>>>>
>>>>[ Todays Threads
>>>>
>>>>
>>> _____
>>>
>>>[ Todays Threads
>>>
>>>
>> _____
>>
>>[ Todays Threads
>>
>>
>
> _____
>
>[ Todays Threads
> _____
>
>[ Todays Threads
> _____
>
>[ Todays Threads
> _____
>
>[ Todays Threads
>
_____
[ Todays
[Todays Threads] [This Message] [Subscription] [Fast Unsubscribe] [User Settings]
