Individuals will group on the basis of shared values.
I am really busy right now but would love to get into this another time.
This seems like it could be a really good discussion.
Timothy Heald
Information Systems Manager
Overseas Security Advisory Council
U.S. Department of State
571.345.2319
The opinions expressed here do not necessarily reflect those of the U.S.
Department of State or any affiliated organization(s). Nor have these
opinions been approved or sanctioned by these organizations. This e-mail is
unclassified based on the definitions in E.O. 12958.
-----Original Message-----
From: Deanna Schneider [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, October 02, 2003 12:24 PM
To: CF-Community
Subject: Re: CF Salary Range
Socialized in the sense working for the rights of the "society" (albeit a
subset of society directly related to the task at hand). Unions don't, in my
experience with them, work for the benefit of the individual. They don't
say, for example, "Well, Tim has been working really hard and showing a lot
of initiative, let's reward him." On the contrary, they say, "everyone
that's worked X long should get rewarded Y amount."
I'm not trying to union-bash, and I definitely think unions did some great
things for all of us. I just don't see them as being strongly
pro-individual, and I see you as purporting to be strongly pro-individual. I
mean, you're an Ayn Rand fan, right? So, maybe I should have said, "I'm
surprised an objectivist would be pro-union" instead of "libertarian."
----- Original Message -----
From: "Heald, Tim" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "CF-Community" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, October 02, 2003 9:23 AM
Subject: RE: CF Salary Range
> Why socialized?
>
> Why would a union think it better that the government distribute money?
>
> Maybe I am explaining it incorrectly. I am thinking probably more along
the
> lines of a guild. Not something that forces compliance, force being the
> main thing that I dislike about regulation.
>
> Timothy Heald
> Information Systems Manager
> Overseas Security Advisory Council
> U.S. Department of State
> 571.345.2319
>
> The opinions expressed here do not necessarily reflect those of the U.S.
> Department of State or any affiliated organization(s). Nor have these
> opinions been approved or sanctioned by these organizations. This e-mail
is
> unclassified based on the definitions in E.O. 12958.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Deanna Schneider [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Thursday, October 02, 2003 9:35 AM
> To: CF-Community
> Subject: Re: CF Salary Range
>
>
> I would think that you would prefer no regulation. Unions don't exactly
> promote individual liberties. They promote a very "socialized" way of
life.
>
> -d
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Heald, Tim" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "CF-Community" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2003 12:57 PM
> Subject: RE: CF Salary Range
>
>
> > A free grouping of people? This would bother a libertarian why?
> >
> > I admit that most modern unions have hurt not helped. There was a time
> when
> > they did very important work. Again remember this is free association,
> not
> > legislated action, and could be used to forestall some of the possible
> > actions the government is consider taking to regulate it, specifically
how
> > it relates to security.
> >
> > Self regulation is always preferable to gov't regulation.
> >
> > Timothy Heald
> > Information Systems Manager
> > Overseas Security Advisory Council
> > U.S. Department of State
> > 571.345.2319
> >
> > The opinions expressed here do not necessarily reflect those of the U.S.
> > Department of State or any affiliated organization(s). Nor have these
> > opinions been approved or sanctioned by these organizations. This e-mail
> is
> > unclassified based on the definitions in E.O. 12958.
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Deanna Schneider [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2003 10:51 AM
> > To: CF-Community
> > Subject: Re: CF Salary Range
> >
> >
> > And a libertarian would be interested in a union? Um, why?
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Heald, Tim" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: "CF-Community" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2003 9:30 AM
> > Subject: RE: CF Salary Range
> >
> >
> > > A friend and I actually started talking about the idea of a union.
You
> > get
> > > skill ratings by time in service, testing, and peer review.
> Additionally
> > > that would allow for a much more stable salary range I think. The
down
> is
> > > that companies historically don't like unions, and would probably
resist
> > > hiring union programmers.
> > >
> > > Timothy Heald
> > > Information Systems Manager
> > > Overseas Security Advisory Council
> > > U.S. Department of State
> > > 571.345.2319
> > >
> > > The opinions expressed here do not necessarily reflect those of the
U.S.
> > > Department of State or any affiliated organization(s). Nor have these
> > > opinions been approved or sanctioned by these organizations. This
> > is
> > > unclassified based on the definitions in E.O. 12958.
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Kwang Suh [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2003 10:01 AM
> > > To: CF-Community
> > > Subject: RE: CF Salary Range
> > >
> > >
> > > You're asking implementation. Think bigger picture: Can we protect
IT
> > jobs
> > > in North America by having professional designations in the industry?
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Kevin Graeme [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > Sent: October 1, 2003 7:50 AM
> > > To: CF-Community
> > > Subject: Re: CF Salary Range
> > >
> > >
> > > > You're overblowing it. Other professions have designations (and
trust
> > me,
> > > a
> > > > CPA desig is not "mythical", no matter how you view it).
> > >
> > > Alright, maybe I did engage in a little hyperbole, and you're right
that
> > > other professions have designations. So how do you see a designation
> > > working? I have some questions:
> > >
> > > 1. How will the designations be determined? Who decides?
> > > 2. How will people be evaluated? Will it involve going to an official
> > office
> > > or will it be a process that anyone authorized can administer?
> > > 3. Will there be a fee to get evaluated?
> > > 4. Who will perform the evaluations? Not just what organization, or
what
> > > process, but how many people will be involved in evaluating all the
> > current
> > > and potential IT workers? How will they be funded?
> > > 5. If it's process where anyone authorized can administer the
> evaluation,
> > > how does that authorization process happen?
> > > 6. Will all current IT workers be grandfathered in, or will they need
to
> > be
> > > evaluated?
> > > 7. If they are grandfathered in, how is there designation determined
for
> > > further job changes?
> > > 8. If they need to be evaluated, what is the timeframe involved and
what
> > is
> > > the incentive to employers to have their current, capable employees
> > > evaluated if there is a chance the employees will not achieve the
> > > appropriate designation for their current job?
> > > 9. How do people contest their designation? Is there going to be a
> process
> > > for that? Who oversees that process to ensure that favoritism doesn't
> > > happen? How will those people be compensated for their time?
> > > 10. How do employers verify that potential applicants have been
> > designated?
> > > 11. How will people who are self-taught know that they need to get a
> > > designation? If it requires an ongoing awareness and promotion
campaign,
> > how
> > > much will that cost and how will it be funded?
> > > 12. How will you ensure that people actually need the designation?
Will
> > > employers only be allowed to hire people with a designation? If no,
then
> > > will equally capable non-designated people have a legal recourse to
> > contest
> > > discrimination against them in the hiring process? If yes, how do you
> > > propose to make it a requirement?
> > > 13. Once people have a designation, what happens as they continue to
> > develop
> > > professionally? Will the designation change to reflect that, and what
is
> > > involved to make the designation change?
> > > 14. If an employee has a designation, but an employer still doesn't
feel
> > > they can actually do the job, what happens? Can the employee appeal to
> any
> > > designating authority to determine whether the employer properly set
the
> > > expectations for a job function with a given designation? Are there
any
> > > protections for the worker at all after going through the process of
> > > achieving a designation or is it only the employer who benefits during
> the
> > > hiring process?
> > > 15. Can a person's designation be revoked for any reason?
> > > 16. How much will designations cost the industry? Will candidates have
> to
> > > pay for testing? If so, how much?
> > > 17. Will designees have to pay ongoing dues? If so, how much?
> > > 18. Will employers have to pay to an industry oversight organization
to
> > fund
> > > any of the designation process? If so, how much?
> > >
> > > Yes, other professions do have designations. They also have
> bureaucracies
> > to
> > > manage them. I'm just wondering how much of a bureaucracy and the
> > associated
> > > costs you envision for your idea. Overall will it cost the industry
more
> > or
> > > less than occasionally hiring and then firing a person with a puffed
up
> > > resume? I honestly don't pretend to know the answer to that. I'm
asking.
> > >
> > > -Kevin
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _____
> > >
> > > [ Todays Threads
> >
> > _____
> >
> > [ Todays Threads
>
> _____
>
> [ Todays Threads
_____
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