Hello Roy, Jim,
OK, I agree with Jim that renaming "solar_irradiance" as "total_solar_irradiance" will
remove any problems with the definition (the definition is fine, but "solar irradiance" has a
broader meaning outside CF).
For the horizontal irradiance, there is a specific CMIP6 requirement for a variable which is a spatially
varying solar horizontal irradiance -- but I've just realised that existing name
"toa_incoming_shortwave_flux" might cover what they want (because "flux" means "flux
per unit area" and radiative fluxes in CF are always radiative energy fluxes). Is there any difference
between TOA incoming radiative flux (in W m-2) and horizontal irradiance that I am missing?
regards,
Martin
________________________________
From: Lowry, Roy K. [r...@bodc.ac.uk]
Sent: 27 January 2018 07:54
To: Juckes, Martin (STFC,RAL,RALSP); cf-metadata@cgd.ucar.edu
Subject: Re: Definiton of solar_irradiance
For three, read four!
Please note that I partially retired on 01/11/2015. I am now only working 7.5
hours a week and can only guarantee e-mail response on Wednesdays, my day in
the office. All vocabulary queries should be sent to enquir...@bodc.ac.uk.
Please also use this e-mail if your requirement is urgent.
________________________________
From: CF-metadata <cf-metadata-boun...@cgd.ucar.edu> on behalf of Lowry, Roy K.
<r...@bodc.ac.uk>
Sent: 27 January 2018 07:51
To: martin.juc...@stfc.ac.uk; cf-metadata@cgd.ucar.edu
Subject: Re: [CF-metadata] Definiton of solar_irradiance
Dear Martin,
I think that there has been some misunderstanding on my part, pointed out by
Jim's e-mail and there is currently no Standard Name for what is often termed
'solar irradiance' in observation data sets.
Should we proceed with the three new Standard Names suggested by Jim?
Cheers, Roy.
Please note that I partially retired on 01/11/2015. I am now only working 7.5
hours a week and can only guarantee e-mail response on Wednesdays, my day in
the office. All vocabulary queries should be sent to enquir...@bodc.ac.uk.
Please also use this e-mail if your requirement is urgent.
________________________________
From: martin.juc...@stfc.ac.uk <martin.juc...@stfc.ac.uk>
Sent: 27 January 2018 00:05
To: Lowry, Roy K.; cf-metadata@cgd.ucar.edu
Subject: RE: Definiton of solar_irradiance
Hello Roy,
maybe .. but I was talking about the current definition of the CF standard name
"solar_irradiance", which, currently, has nothing to do with the vertical,
regards,
Martin
________________________________
From: Lowry, Roy K. [r...@bodc.ac.uk]
Sent: 26 January 2018 20:35
To: Juckes, Martin (STFC,RAL,RALSP); cf-metadata@cgd.ucar.edu
Subject: Re: Definiton of solar_irradiance
Hello Martin,
Isn't that was what cosine collectors on radiometers are for? I thought they
resolved the vertical component of the radiation within the hemisphere sampled.
Cheers, Roy.
Please note that I partially retired on 01/11/2015. I am now only working 7.5
hours a week and can only guarantee e-mail response on Wednesdays, my day in
the office. All vocabulary queries should be sent to enquir...@bodc.ac.uk.
Please also use this e-mail if your requirement is urgent.
________________________________
From: martin.juc...@stfc.ac.uk <martin.juc...@stfc.ac.uk>
Sent: 26 January 2018 19:15
To: Lowry, Roy K.; cf-metadata@cgd.ucar.edu
Subject: RE: Definiton of solar_irradiance
Hello Roy,
but the flow of radiant energy isn't necessarily perpendicular to the surface
of the Earth. At the top of the atmosphere the flow of energy will generally be
along a ray from the Sun. If you want it to be the irradiance on a horizontal
surface you really need to take out the bit about being perpendicular to the
flow of energy.
You can't make the name work for horizontal surfaces without contradicting the
assertion in the current definition that it applies to TSI,
regards,
Martin
________________________________
From: Lowry, Roy K. [r...@bodc.ac.uk]
Sent: 26 January 2018 17:46
To: Juckes, Martin (STFC,RAL,RALSP); cf-metadata@cgd.ucar.edu
Subject: Re: Definiton of solar_irradiance
Hello again,
What we map to the 'solar_irradiance' Standard name are parameters such as
'Downwelling vector irradiance as energy of electromagnetic radiation (solar
wavelengths) in the atmosphere by pyranometer'. So in the use case I was
thinking of it's both a horizontal surface and a surface perpendicular to the
direction of flow of the radiant energy i.e. we have made an assumption the the
direction of flow of the radiant energy is perpendicular to the Earth's surface.
Consequently, I would amend the definition as below rather than redefining from
scratch with the risk you pointed out of changing the semantics of existing
data sets.
"Irradiance" means the power per unit area (called radiative flux in other
standard names), the area being normal to the direction of flow of the radiant energy.
The area is a horizontal surface for radiant energy flowing perpendicular to the Earth's
surface.
Cheers, Roy.
Please note that I partially retired on 01/11/2015. I am now only working 7.5
hours a week and can only guarantee e-mail response on Wednesdays, my day in
the office. All vocabulary queries should be sent to enquir...@bodc.ac.uk.
Please also use this e-mail if your requirement is urgent.
________________________________
From: martin.juc...@stfc.ac.uk <martin.juc...@stfc.ac.uk>
Sent: 26 January 2018 16:52
To: Lowry, Roy K.; cf-metadata@cgd.ucar.edu
Subject: RE: Definiton of solar_irradiance
Dear Roy,
If we were starting from scratch I would recommend the following:
Solar irradiance is the power per unit area of the solar radiation received
from above at horizontal surface. It is distinct from the Direct Normal
Irradiance (which refers to radiation received by a surface perpendicular to
rays travelling from the sun) and the Total Solar Irradiance (which is the mean
value of Direct Normal Irradiance at a standard distance from the sun).
I am, however, concerned that people may have already, on the basis of the
current definition, used the term for Total Solar Irradiance.
regards,
Martin
________________________________________
From: Lowry, Roy K. [r...@bodc.ac.uk]
Sent: 26 January 2018 16:03
To: Juckes, Martin (STFC,RAL,RALSP); cf-metadata@cgd.ucar.edu
Subject: Re: Definiton of solar_irradiance
Dear Martin,
I agree that the current definition reflects more an astrophysics textbook
rather than common usage of the Standard Name and so I would support tweaking
the wording as you suggest. Care to come up with the replacement wording to be
used?
Cheers, Roy.
Please note that I partially retired on 01/11/2015. I am now only working 7.5
hours a week and can only guarantee e-mail response on Wednesdays, my day in
the office. All vocabulary queries should be sent to enquir...@bodc.ac.uk.
Please also use this e-mail if your requirement is urgent.
________________________________
From: martin.juc...@stfc.ac.uk <martin.juc...@stfc.ac.uk>
Sent: 26 January 2018 15:57
To: Lowry, Roy K.; cf-metadata@cgd.ucar.edu
Subject: RE: Definiton of solar_irradiance
Hello Roy,
I suspected that there might be such a usage ... but don't you agree that the
current CF definition, which I've quoted below, is inconsistent with this? But
it could be adapted with a small change of wording,
regards,
Martin
________________________________
From: Lowry, Roy K. [r...@bodc.ac.uk]
Sent: 26 January 2018 15:51
To: Juckes, Martin (STFC,RAL,RALSP); cf-metadata@cgd.ucar.edu
Subject: Re: Definiton of solar_irradiance
Hello Martin,
From an oceanographic perspective I had always thought of solar (and other
waveband) irradiance as the energy incident on the sea surface, which is a
horizontal surface. So, I would like to think of solar_irradiance as being
horizontal_solar_irradiance and if any new Standard Name is required to cover
the current Vaisala instrumentation use case then that should be
normal_standard_irradiance.
Cheers, Roy.
Please note that I partially retired on 01/11/2015. I am now only working 7.5
hours a week and can only guarantee e-mail response on Wednesdays, my day in
the office. All vocabulary queries should be sent to enquir...@bodc.ac.uk.
Please also use this e-mail if your requirement is urgent.
________________________________
From: CF-metadata <cf-metadata-boun...@cgd.ucar.edu> on behalf of
martin.juc...@stfc.ac.uk <martin.juc...@stfc.ac.uk>
Sent: 26 January 2018 13:37
To: cf-metadata@cgd.ucar.edu
Subject: [CF-metadata] Definiton of solar_irradiance
Hello,
the cf standard name has a definition:
The quantity with standard name solar_irradiance, often called Total Solar Irradiance
(TSI), is the radiation from the sun integrated over the whole electromagnetic spectrum
and over the entire solar disk. The quantity applies outside the atmosphere, by default
at a distance of one astronomical unit from the sun, but a coordinate or scalar
coordinate variable of distance_from_sun can be used to specify a value other than the
default. "Irradiance" means the power per unit area (called radiative flux in
other standard names), the area being normal to the direction of flow of the radiant
energy.
My question is about the last phrase, which I have highlighted. The flow of
radiant energy from the sun at the top of the atmosphere is directed away from
the sun .. so this definition would imply that the irradiance is defined
relative to a fixed plane in the solar coordinate system. This is OK for solar
physicists, but atmospheric scientists are sometime interested in irradiance
relative to a horizontal surface.
Vaisalla distinguish between the two by defining "horizontal solar irradiance" to be the
irradiance on a horizontal surface and "normal solar irradiance" to be irradiance on a surface
perpendicular to a line to the sun
(<UrlBlockedError.aspx>http://www.3tier.com/en/support/solar-online-tools/what-solar-values-are-shown-map/
).
Should "solar_irradiance" apply to both usages, or do we need a new standard name, e.g.
"horizonatl_solar_irradiance"?
regards,
Martin
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