Disagree Grant 100% . You're pitching the whole "he's Microsoft, he has an agenda" angle. Yeah I do have an agenda, and thats to open guys i've known and worked with along with new blood into the possibility that .NET etc isn't all that bad or hard to use.
The question I have for you is, "What if i'm right!". I'm only a month into Microsoft, It's actually not that bad to work for. They have a mandate (by law in most parts) to change their posture into making it more "friendly" to competitors so the trick for me, especially after today's luanch, is to work on ways to illustrate to one and all that there is more to Microsoft then previously seen. We just launched Windows Vista in Sydney CBD. I watched Rogue Traders play to our consumer launch, I heard the speakers mention all the new things that are being launched within Vista and Office 2007 (Kodak is integrated with Vista, Sanity Music Download Mp3's is now part of Media Player, BigPond Movies on-demand is now part of Media Centre which comes with Vista and so on). I've seen numbers been thrown around by both Apple and Adobe. I've heard and watched all the negative PR around WPF and Internet Explorer and its not that I'm not getting that they aren't perfect. Yeah Internet Explorer probably needs more work, Yeah WPF isn't done, Yeah WPF/E is looking to become one day bigger and better. Just remember that today is officially the day when Microsoft decided to go to market (as this is a significant milestone in Microsofts future/history, and Australia & NZ are the first for once!), the starting gun was fired - today - for the first time really since XP launch. So like/hate Microsoft all you want, thats fine but as a developer, start thinking about the 5 year mark. Where do you think Microsoft is going to be in 5 years, what if Windows Vista is not only as successful as XP but more successful then ever. What if. You guys are given a seed in my upcoming show & tells, its still your responsibility to decide what to do with it. You won't be able to buy product on the night, I won't send in sales teams or do followups with anyone post the event. I'll simply move on to the next project I have on the books, but should you decide to take your career down the road that has Microsoft pieces in it, all I can do for you is provide you a few guide posts and put you in touch with some other folks to help you, but thats it (I mean I've already put someone within the Adobe community that i know has great potential on an upcoming Plane to Redmond US, so that they can gain a deeper insight into what's possible with Microsoft, stuff I just can't answer here locally - no catch by the way). That's my sales pitch, its that I can only show you where the path begins, its up to you to decide on whether you want to travel it, I can't force you and I choose not to. I'm a developer that can now program in Coldfusion, Java, MXML, ActionScript 1.0, 2.0, 3.0, C#, VB, XAML and so on. Does that make me worse of or better off having these languages under my belt (I also plan on getting certified in all of the above to re-inforce my belief that knowing of a language vs knowing it, is entirely different things). So now I can talk about a lot of things and about a lot of products, I'll keep a trained eye on Microsofts offerings, but I'm not stupid enough to try and ram a product for the sake of it down your throats. As while I could do that and make a sale, In the end its "used-car-salesman" approach which is worse then not making the sale. So have your debates on whether MS are good vs evil, or whether I sold out or didn't I'm moving on, but let me know if you want my help (in all of the above languages) as I now get paid to do just that, help. Balls in your court guys but I'm out. P.S Internet Explorer is a "standard unto itself", one could argue that its the benchmark that is used in contrast. The word standard can mean different things to different people. In the case today, you guys associated standard as being complying with W3C standards, yet one could argue that is simply a "standard browser" at the core, in that its basic function is to allow you to surf the web? It's interesting though to note the reaction and I've past it up to corp as an FYI, as I can see your perspectives on it and agree, IE could do more. P.S.S I'm a shareholder of Microsoft M@ and You'd be suprised my wants and needs from them :) On 1/30/07, Grant Straker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > Mike, > > I am a salesman and totally believe in sales pitches - how else would > I sell my own products. As I general rule sales people don't trawl > lists pushing products, if this is a standard practice it would save > me a lot of marketing money, if you're saying that community lists are > happy for this to happen then I'm out of touch and need to reassess > our marketing strategy. In my experience people generally react badly > to this strategy but maybe I'm not bold enough and don't have a big > enough brand to pull it off. > > I don't hate Microsoft at all and use their products > extensively,ultimately they are a one platform product which means we > primarily use the Adobe product set as we need to support multiple > clients / server platforms. ( I won't be drawn into a MS v Adobe > thread as this would see Scotts KPI's sky rocket I'm sure). > > Scott, > > Actually, its more about Technology Adoption LifeCycle then awareness. > I'd > prefer you do your homework some more on what Evangelists do to be > honest :) > (It took me a while to get my head around it). > > I'm sorry but the Technology Adoption LifeCycle is all about selling > the next generation of your product, nothing more , nothing less - > Sales,Sales and more Sales!!!. > Evangelist is a fancy word for a technical sales person and it makes > people coming from a technology background into sales feel better > about it. > > > There are I'm sure, a lot of people on this list who need to interact > with MS technologies and that is one of the key reasons for adding > better .Net support to CF8 as it was based on community feedback. When > Straker, as a small company based on the bottom of the planet want to > market to developers to PAY for advertising on CF/Felx sites and > forums, I'm sure MS with their $$ budgets could advertise directly to > developers rather than starting a trend where by every vendor out > their will now be turning technical lists into mass marketing tools. > > I actually think Daemon should look at offering sponsorship on the > list to make things clear. > > Grant > > On Jan 30, 4:56 am, "Scott Barnes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > On 1/29/07, Matt Voerman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > Hey Guys, > > > I just thought i'd chuck in my 2 cents worth here...Only 2c's? :P > > > > > For a start, I don't think this is about Microsoft bashing. I think > > > the main issue here is, that whilst i'm sure Scott has the best of > > > (personal) intentions in educating the masses about "the best tools > > > for the job'. At the end of the day (or is that sales chain) what he's > > > ultimately offering, amounts to nothing more than a Microsoft sales > > > pitch (targeted towards Adobe customers (hence it appearing in this > CFThink being the keyword. I again draw you back to the original post, > whereby > > I am "asking" (permission based marketing if you will) whether anyone on > the > > list be interested in getting an expansion on how some of the Microsoft > > products maybe be of interest to the CF developer here. I've gotten > quite a > > lot of responses as being yes. Its not a pitch, its a question. > > > > I clearly stated my "intent", "reason" and proposed "outcome" in a > > transparent manner. Keep it context is all I ask, and so far both you > and > > Grant haven't :) (which I can understand how easy it can be to do so, > but in > > reality you're kind of putting words and assumptions on my behalf > without > > actually consulting me first before hand - so its kind of unfair?) > > > > I also clearly stated its a show & tell, which is the exact same format > as > > what we are all used to with existing User Group Presentations (they > aren't > > sales pitches are they? so what gives, and don't play the MSFTE card as > its > > getting old). > > > > forum)). Having said that (Mike), I don't think anyone is against > > > > > hearing sales pitches per se' - but lets be up front about them. Don't > > > wrap them up in rhetoric about 'best tool for the job' or 'show and > > > tell' sessions.You're entitled to your opinion, but I wouldn't assume > its right :). It is a > > show and tell, its not a sales pitch. There is no call to action post > its > > session. It's "here is the tools, this is what they can do, heres an > example > > of some code, any questions?" > > > > Pretty much the same format given in again, most User Groups we have all > > attended monthly? (So do you feel Apollo presentations are sales pitches > or > > informative sessions? Does that also mean Adobe must also abide by the > same > > rules? what are the rules? Point is you're playing the MSFTE card again > > stating the above. If you harbour distrust towards the company thats > cool, > > sorry to hear that, but it would be a personal issue outside of the > context > > of this discussion). > > > > Scott also mentions that he couldn't care one way or another if we > > > > > bought into what he's talking about - but i'd hazard a guess his > > > employer definitely does! And i'm sorry to be the one to break the > > > news to you mate, but Microsoft didn't employ you for your whit, charm > > > and good looks ;-) Your official mandate as Microsoft Developer > > > Evangelist is to 'increase product awareness" (primarily to Adobe > > > customers *he coughs under his breath*). So whether you want to > admitI'm sorry Matt, were you on the selection panel? does my boss Frank > confide > > in you on what I'm paid to do vs not paid to do? In order to answer that > > remark, you first need to grasp why the "Evangelist" roles exist > world-wide > > in Microsoft ( I could spend a novel on why, but this bit kind of > summarises > > it). > > > > "....As an ICT industry leader whose technology products are used by > > millions of consumers, businesses, and organizations worldwide, > Microsoft > > has a responsibility to develop technology that is based on commonly > used > > standards and to make sure our products work well with those of other > > companies-including those of our competitors. To help promote > innovation, > > enable greater security throughout the industry, and foster new economic > > opportunities, we also have a responsibility to share the source code of > our > > leading products..." > > > > it or not, the ultimate result of this increased (product) awareness, > > > > > is to increase sales (and maybe make a few conversions along the > way).Actually, its more about Technology Adoption LifeCycle then awareness. > I'd > > prefer you do your homework some more on what Evangelists do to be > honest :) > > (It took me a while to get my head around it). > > > > For what its worth, I personally think your 'compare and contrast' > > > > > approach to an 'information session' definitely has its merits - > soThat my friend is why we have threads like this. Its a dangerous position > to > > be in, because lets say for arguments sake Microsoft has the better > > solution, by say 53% of the majority vote of sampled developers. I then > get > > up in front of one and all, and talk about how great it is vs the > others. I > > give the other technologies a dress down in terms of the cons. Would > that > > not come off as being "forced opinion". > > > > I'd prefer to simply declare warts and all, on what it can do and can't > do > > and then let the others come to their own conclusion as to which is the > > right fit. As not to do so, is a sales pitch and that's what you've > stated > > you don't want? (so now you want it? - confused?) > > > > long as the sessions are totally balanced and unbiased. Unfortunately, > > > > > your position with Microsoft ultimately means that this can't be the > > > case. I hardly think Microsoft are going to endorse you pimping aNot > entirely true. I've had conversations with folks about WPF/E and have > > stated "Use FLEX, as in your case its not suitable for your needs at > this > > point". My boss has asked that I state the facts, call a spade a spade > and > > don't turn into a Microsoft Fanboi. At Microsoft its considered a core > value > > to be self-critical of the products/services we have, as how can we > innovate > > when we become complacent from having only "Good News" rammed down our > > throats. > > > > I'd also like to make a point here that Microsoft's approach to business > is > > significantly different to Adobe, in a lot of ways. I'm getting the > feeling > > that most here may associate Adobe/Macromedia of old's approach to the > > community as being the same way Microsoft works. I've spoken to some > > ex-Adobe/Macromedia employees who now work at Microsoft and a lot of the > > comments were positive in terms of "How people here are so much more > > accepting of perfections aswell as imperfections". > > > > > competitor's solution/product at an event they're funding/sponsoring - > > > even if the solution/product is better than theirs! Combined with > > > this, you run the very real risk of alienating Abobe product users > > > (supporters) by having these (compare-and-contrast) sessions > > > ultimately ending up on the Microsoft side of the fence - essentially > > > resulting in them being nothing more than Adobe bagging sessions.Yup, > thus I avoid the apples vs oranges discussions. I got roped into it > > once, and it degenerated into fanboism. Given a lot of pro-Adobeians > dislike > > Microsoft blindly, those discussions usually end in a pissing contest, > with > > the loudest voice wins. I again, refer you to a word that was given to > me > > earlier this year from a wise developer - Agnostic. > > > > If I could make a few suggestions regarding how to best tackle/promote > > > > > these sessions... > > > > > 1. If you want to do compare-and-contrast sessions (read sales > > > pitches) please don't hide them under the guise of 'show-and-tell' > > > sessions. Granted you might actually be demo'ing some Microsoft's > > > latest and greatest offerings, but lets get real and call a spade a > > > spade (or at the very least acknowledge what they really are!)I am, > i'm showing the products (warts and all) and telling you about what > > they can and can't do, and how they link back to an average Coldfusion > > Developer (So how does WPF and Coldfusion play together?, How does a > > Coldfusion Developer get started with ASP.NET) that kind of mentality. > I'm > > yet to outline the specifics, I was more asking "would this kind of > thing be > > of use to the CFAussies" - Answer was yes (devil is in the detail) > > > > 2. Unfortunately, your current position doesn't afford you the luxury > > > > > of being a 'tools' fence sitter (I said tools not tool ;-) As such, > > > don't hide the fact you work for Microsoft (as you've had a tendency > > > to do in the past). Transparency is the key.Hang on, never said I was > a tool fence sitter. I said I will talk about > > tools that are relevant to the developers in whom I engage. So If I'm in > a > > room full of fanatical Flash Developers, I'd talk about .NET and .NET > > Remoting etc... so yeah, skewd thinking there Matt ;) > > > > As for transparency, the only thing I can think of is the Ted vs Me blog > > thing. In which I'd argue as to why freaking ask for a email, URL and > name > > as your "metadata" before commenting and then turn around and state "You > > didn't identify yourself by not having a signature" (even though my name > > pointed directly at my MSDN blog). > > > > So if you're referring to that as being "the past", then I'd argue you > > clearly insult the intelligence of the average reader who didn't connect > the > > dots on the two. It was Mesh and Ted's belief that potentially users > > wouldn't realise I wasn't Microsoft (even though not one person publicly > > supported that claim outside of the two Adobe staffers, so again, I > think > > they underestimate the "street smarts" of the average punter). > > > > Transparency is the key and I'd argue "practice what you preach" ;) > > > > > 3. I'm not really sure that promoting Microsoft tools/solutions in a > > > ColdFusion forum is the right place to be doing this. Sure, there may > > > be some CF'ers out there who are keen to see what offerings MS have up > > > their sleeves. But i'd hazard a guess if that were the case, I don't > > > think a CF forum would but the first place I would come looking for > > > info on MS solutions.Pft, you and I have been on this list like most, > for just under a decade. > > You know better then to come at me with that b.s. I know of a few people > on > > this list that have had to interact with .NET + CF. I've gotten feedback > > from this thread by actually quite a lot of developers on this list that > > they want to know more about .NET so that they can gain a better > > understanding of it. A lot of CF developers whom have invested their > time > > and energy into mastering ... > > > > read more ยป > > > > > -- Regards, Scott Barnes http://www.mossyblog.com --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "cfaussie" group. To post to this group, send email to cfaussie@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/cfaussie?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
