Well make it two in a row then.
However I will state this though, Sean jumped into a debate about the future of CF at the time and working for Macromedia at the time he just happened to be well the wrong side of the line I guess. Nothing against him on that. Hehe.. Andrew Scott From: cfaussie@googlegroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Scott Barnes Sent: Friday, 11 April 2008 8:37 PM To: cfaussie@googlegroups.com Subject: [cfaussie] Re: recruters say "CF on the way out"? ... FFS! not FUD from them too? Sean's a top bloke, and i wouldn't bare any grudges or blame his way. I'm sure he fought a lot untold / unsaid battles within the belly of the beast (just like I and others do inside Microsoft silently to the outside world - what you think it's all roses inside the firewall?). I also wouldn't of thought he was the man to talk to in this regard, but anyway. I think at WebDU, you have your moment with Adobe, as a community decide what action items you want from them, calmly put forward your requirements and needs (as a collective audience) and make sure you get commitment / definitive dates. Don't settle for "we're looking into that.." (i know our audiences crucify me the moment i attemp that little question dodge / answer on serious questions) Scott. I think this the first time ever you've agreed with me Andrew.. you have no idea how nervous i feel now.. almost naked like vulnerable. On Fri, Apr 11, 2008 at 8:13 PM, CyberAngel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: You know Scott. We have had our debates over time, and at the end of the day. I can't even raise a finger to disagree with you. Your last few posts have been well put, and for someone who technically is the opposition but I long time poster here has seen and done everything that most of us has. The trials and tribulations of Coldfusion will more than likely as Chad said, be debated again 2 years down the track. I got very heated with Sean Corfield for the reasons that we are talking about here. The attitude was that the sales look good and that was all they cared about, but the point that got lost is that the jobs slowly disappeared and as I said to Sean if the sales are good then why aren't developer numbers increasing, rather than decreasing? I got irate with Sean, because even though I respect his knowledge and who he is. I lost respect for him at the time because he wasn't looking at the bigger picture. That was 5 years ago, and now it is being discussed again. Scott, I must admit I never thought of an MVP style program for adobe but it would be rather good to adopt. Well it would, I could be subject to more applications by the company that I currently don't use now, nor am I aware that they offer. But I don't need to preach that to you Scott. As for promoting the product, we as a developer can go so far. The rest is up to the company, and if there is no support from the company then we as a developer have to do what is right for ourselves. And if that means moving to .Net or Java then so be it, I must admit I love .Net and rather find Java a pain in the rear end. But I am forced to use Java in my job now, and there is nothing more that Adobe can do about that. If the business model was different, and the engine was open sourced it might have been a different story. (Sorry to bring that up again) But for those of you who don't know my boss was a Coldfusion developer, but due to the lack of good developers he looked past that and looked at the money offerings in work from elsewhere. That is the reality of our company, he would have continued with Coldfusion but not at its cost and lack of foreseeable future of support of our products. For web design, Coldfusion will always be seen as the niche application that does everything but costs your first born. Anyway Scott, from me I wish you all the best. I miss our debatesJ Andrew Scott From: cfaussie@googlegroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Scott Barnes Sent: Friday, 11 April 2008 2:48 PM To: cfaussie@googlegroups.com Subject: [cfaussie] Re: recruters say "CF on the way out"? ... FFS! not FUD from them too? Yes, I did get promoted and thankfully no more Evangelism. I find the Evangelism scene, political, annoying and if i have one more heated debate with the competitors over something minor and trivial, I'll retire and go paint landscapes.. My new role is Product Manager in the Rich Client Platform Team (WPF/Silverlight). Now that's out of the way. Let me share some of my learned experience around technology adoption (specifically in Australia/New Zealand), and specifically brand awareness. Right now the benefits around why Coldfusion aren't there, in that they may technically be there but the fact is there is limited marketing around the product and not just the product but also the community surrounding the product. My previous role was an Evangelist, and i bet if i asked anyone on this list what does that mean, I'd get various answers. An Evangelist role within Microsoft is simple, help folks with new emerging technology not by ramming it down their throats, but simply connecting them to people. In that, it wasn't my job to make you buy ASP.NET <http://asp.net/> or adopt Silverlight, but if you showed an interest I'd connect you with some folks whom can either pay you to do the job, help you learn the technology or provide you with some overview/understanding of what the technologies we had offer could do. I'd also promote the new technology and with our team, do presos etc.. that and travel the world and attend really cool parties (but thats boring right). Evangelism is crucial to keeping technical communities alive, as it's not only a contact sport but it's one that scales quite well - if architected correctly. Find generals in the field, help them, support them, provide as much as you can to enable them to scale. Right now you folks don't have Coldfusion Generals. I mentioned at last years WebDU that Adobe should consider MVP programs or similar nature (I did myself no favours by doing this) and got laughed at, as if i was spreading some FUD around or something. MVP programs are extremely successful inside Microsoft communities, we ensure these folks are kept in the loop as much as possible and can call on the evangelists etc anytime should they need anything, some would say they are almost blue badges themselves. They also have no issue with beating us around the head should we screw up - some have and done really good job of it - we don't punish them for it, we instead fix whatever the heck we stuffed up on and apologise (should it be our fault) as to punish them would cause 20,000 times more pain for us then the original problem causes (basic math right). Some fun facts about MVP's todate: . Worldwide there are more than 100 million participants in technical communities. . Of these participants there are only 4,000 MVPs located across 93 countries, spanning more than 30 languages and more than 90 Microsoft technologies. . There has been a 10 percent to 15 percent MVP audience growth in countries such as China, Russia and Korea . Over the past few years new regions with MVPs include the Republic of Congo, Ghana, Nepal, Macedonia and Macao . In recent years, a handful of MVPs have been awarded in new categories such as MSN, Xbox, Visual Studio Tools for Office, Microsoft Dynamics and Visual Studio Team System. . MVPs are a diverse group that includes accountants, teachers, artists, government workers, engineers and technologists. Now, who's laughing? I'm not. It takes a lot of work to get someone into the MPV program, and just because your the most popular guy/girl on a mailing list doesn't automatically make you an MPV. It's not whom you know, it's what you know and I can say outloud, the paperwork internally to get someone on this program is an effort - but worth it in the end. My point is really raw and simple. Call it FUD, i don't care - in fact i'd prefer to keep the politics out of this one. I spent a lot of years waiting for the Coldfusion scene to pickup. I like most of you at times took the crappy jobs while the market picked up, I also waited for Macromedia to finally get some budget to market and so on.. we got told a lot of promises and fast talkings at WebDU/MXDU's of past and yet nothing much has occurred. Year after year the Coldfusion question would come up, same or similiar responses would pacify us for only so long... eg: Remember Suncorp high-fives? Guess how many CF developers are left - over to you Darren. I raise this point simply to say guys, enough. You have got realistically limited choices: - Start acting like a community and foster better relationships. Don't bring in the same muffin eaters, look for new ones. - Understand what motivates adoption in today's market. - Older generation developers switch to languages simply due to boredom, perception of no work and last but most important of all, lack of support by the brand whom owns the language. - WebDU should be bigger each year, but this year we're not even attending simply because I couldn't get an ROI story out of it. I'll be honest, year on year we attend, we really get low value out of attending. We'd rather focus our energy on events like WD07, BarCamps etc as these folks are not only agnostic but open to technology discussion, less about brand politics. - Put more pressure on Adobe to get the budgets or better programs in place. I'm amazed that we in Australia have 13 Evangelists whom are kept busy 24/7 and Adobe has 0. One Evangelist for APAC? - how about you have your own local Adobe celeb to lead you instead of waiting for the US guys to fly out once a year? If you think this thread is doing my employer any favours, think otherwise and i'm sure i'll get some feedback for it (Today is my last official day as Evangelist so i have a small amount of free reign here). I leave this as simply a parting gift to you folks before I head over to the US. I loved working in the Coldfusion space for many years, despite our petty email squabbles and thread wars - Taco Fleur, you're still cool - there have been some real quality friendships made out of this community (actually most of my best friends are Coldfusion Devs from past) I'd hate to see that die off, but perception = reality and remember that. You can sit there and take it or whine about Microsoft all you like, but we didn't create this problem and more importantly there was a reason why i simply down tools and went over to Microsoft not knowing a lick of .NET and it wasn't to get one up on the Adobe/Macromedia crew. That being said, my inbox is open to any whom wish to adopt .NET :) On Tue, Apr 8, 2008 at 8:56 PM, CyberAngel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Actually he is now a product manager for Silverlight... No more evangelism for Scott J From: cfaussie@googlegroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of M@ Bourke Sent: Tuesday, 8 April 2008 8:03 PM To: cfaussie@googlegroups.com Subject: [cfaussie] Re: recruters say "CF on the way out"? ... FFS! not FUD from them too? Just in case anyone is new to the list, Scott is a .net product evangelist at Microsoft. of cos he is most likely unbiased and posted his last comment via an iPhone :P <br <br --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "cfaussie" group. 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