asatru.is lots of powerful operators with well defined roles and rules.
never tells you what to do or not to do. only tells you what happens if you do. On 10 Mar 2018 20:08, "Ian Clark" <earthspo...@gmail.com> wrote: If all programming language communities are religions, then might J be classified as a heresy? On Thu, Mar 8, 2018 at 8:01 PM, Jo van Schalkwyk <jvanschalk...@gmail.com> wrote: > Heh. All programming language communities are indistinguishable from > religions. It's a human thing. My 2c, Jo. > > On 9 March 2018 at 08:40, R.E. Boss <r.e.b...@outlook.com> wrote: > > > Contrary to what most people think, J is not a programming language, J is > > a religion, at least it shares a remarkable number of characteristics > with > > a religion (and if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck ...). > > Ken Iverson is called The Almighty and Roger Hui his Archangel ( > > http://www.jsoftware.com/pipermail/general/2001-July/007034.html), and > > like real believers it does not matter that the first passed away and the > > second has changed jobs with a collegial religion. Perhaps together with > > the current Iverson, they can be better considered as the Father, the > Holy > > Spirit and the Son. And since we have the Deity defined, we need a Pope, > > and who better than Henry Rich could play that role? He even > > single-handedly extended and optimised the religion, not to mention the > > Dissect he created, which teaches you to recognize your sins. Recently, > the > > Pope created NuVoc, a children's bible, or, more modern, the bible for > > dummies. > > The Dictionary of course is our original Bible, Koran if you want, and > the > > Vocabulary our catechism, actually only accessible for priests. However, > we > > don't have priests in our community. We do have, c.f. > > https://simplifyconnections.appspot.com/?place=J , novices, advBegs, > > competents, proficients, experts and others, which are probably the > > heathens. Problem is that we are very tolerant within our community and > you > > may give yourself any title you think is appropriate. Perhaps the Pope > > should give this issue some attention. > > > > Contrary to most religions, we don’t preach much, since we only accept > new > > members via a rather steep learning curve. We even don't do much to help > > the newbies or even stimulate them to climb that mountain. So the old > > religious saying "many are called, but few are chosen" is applied here > as " > > many are challenged, but few succeed". > > But as soon as you advance the learning curve more than halfway, you > > experience heaven. > > However, what most new converts do then (not uncommon in religions), is > > try to convert their surroundings to their new religion, unfortunately > > mostly in vain. And if they discover that, they try to alter J, which > > appears to be even harder. > > Some 'fork' religions have been grown, even more obscure than J, but > above > > all, they lack the Trinity J has, which is quite a drawback for a new > faith. > > So here you are, new member of a cult, perhaps even a sect, what now? > > Since I am only a proficient, happy member of this community, I'm afraid > I > > cannot help you. > > > > > > R.E Boss > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Chat <chat-boun...@forums.jsoftware.com> On Behalf Of james > > > faure > > > Sent: donderdag 1 maart 2018 03:40 > > > To: c...@jsoftware.com > > > Subject: [Jchat] Where is J going ? > > > > > > Andrew Dabrowski is right. If J continues to steer it's current course, > > it will be > > > quickly forgotten. Roger Hui himself seems to have abandonned J > (correct > > > me if I am mistaken), in favor of Dyalog APL. I can vouch from first > hand > > > experience how incredibly difficult it is to interest my friends in J > > and in fact > > > have yet to get a single other person from Epitech > > > http://international.epitech.eu/ to learn J, even though I believe > they > > are > > > convinced of it's power. > > > > > > Epitech International<http://international.epitech.eu/> > > > international.epitech.eu > > > Dear International Students, We will be happy to welcome you to Epitech > > > and hope you will enjoy this unique learning experience! Epitech has > > > solidified its reputation ... > > > > > > > > > > > > Since I seem to be by far the youngest person with a serious interest > in > > J, I > > > will try to explain my understanding of the current situation, in the > > hope that > > > it may be useful to jsoftware. I also must say that between the time > > that I > > > heard of J and commited to learning it, I was extremely unsure about > > > whether the language would have a future and whether it would be > suitable > > > to do everything. Ultimately, Henry Rich's success story is the reason > I > > am > > > here, without it I would probably still be wondering to myself from > time > > to > > > time about J, but without the conviction that it is suitable, or worth > > learning. > > > Project Euler also played a big part, and seems to be the main place > > where > > > people first hear about J nowadays. And even with those conditions > being > > > met, If I learned J, it is only because I am both extremely determined, > > and > > > was able to complete school projects with plenty of spare time. I have > > shown > > > J to many people at Epitech, but I remain the only person who uses it, > > most > > > of those people never made it past the first few steps. The learning > > curve > > > has to be reduced, and it must be done so in the style of this decade. > > As an > > > aside, on proofreading this, some of my statements are harsh, so please > > > keep in mind they are not criticisms, more like a plea for help on J's > > behalf. > > > Also please do not think me arrogant because of my convictions. I am > well > > > aware that I am not affiliated with nor in charge of jsoftware. > > > > > > My initial statement at the beginning of the long thread in the source > > forum > > > about generators expressed my surprise at J's lack of optimization for > > such a > > > simple case as '>:i.1000x'. I have mentionned multiple times that > > extended > > > precision calculations are simply far too slow, and this has even > > threatened > > > my desire to continue with J by throwing some serious doubts on it's > > ability > > > to satisfy my needs. But the greatest threat to J's existence is it's > > complete > > > failure to keep up with modern trends: > > > > > > > > > 0 The name 'J' is now exposed as being idiotic - it is very difficult > to > > make > > > google understand what one means by 'J'. In fact I am forced to preface > > > every google search with 'site:jsoftware', which is no doubt > sufficiently > > > annoying to put off many people. The language must be renamed. > > > > > > 1 The website looks decades old, and it is difficult to find things. > > Some people > > > I have shown J to abandonned the attempt after a bare minute of > visiting > > it. > > > > > > 2 Stack Overflow, and more generally Q&A resources are extremely > popular > > > nowadays, most people are simply too lazy to read documentation and > will > > > always try to formulate their question to google first. Should this > prove > > > unsuccessful, they are often much less motivated to continue. J has > > almost > > > no presence on SO. > > > > > > 3 The Foreign's in J and the interface to this are frankly an > > abherration: > > > nobody wants to have to learn or look up all the time how to activate > > this and > > > that foreign, and there is no reason why they shouldn't all have much > > more > > > logical names. In the same vein: the o. family must be given logical > > names like > > > 'cos' 'sin' etc.. The concern of polluting the namespace is a miniscule > > one. I > > > also would urge everyone to stop using phrases like '2 o. y', and > '6!:2' > > etc.. > > > but for that to happen, these need standard default names, even > multiple > > > aliases. Noone cares nowadays about the miniscule performance loss > > > associated with having multiple equivalent names, the possibility of > > > guessingand have it work anyway is far more important. > > > > > > 4 The SC based system has has got to go.. A modern program should > > certainly > > > not depend on strict formulation rules in order to run optimally > > > > > > 5 Information needs to be presented differently, and in a way more in > > > keeping with modern trends for webdesign. NuVoc is magnificent, and I > > very > > > much appreciate the significant effort that has gone into explaining J, > > but the > > > website's overall presentation is not good. > > > > > > 6 People nowadays are too lazy to download the qtide and try the labs, > > (not > > > my learning style but for sure they are valuable) > > > > > > 7 Why isn't there an online Jconsole that can be used interactively, on > > > jsoftware's frontpage ?? The closest thing I could find is the 3rd > party > > > https://tio.run/#j > > > > > > This comes back to the concept that If Newcomers are not sufficiently > > > hooked in within 5 seconds, you lose them forever. > > > > > > 8 There must be bulitin help in the jconsole. Even if it bloats the > > binary, > > > builtin help is obligatory for J. (something like help '/' should print > > some > > > example uses of insert and a brief summary) > > > > > > 9 Error messages are incomprehensible to newcomers (why does 'Rank > error' > > > not also print the offending verb, it's rank, and the offending nouns + > > their > > > ranks ?) - experienced users are happy to use the debug interface, but > > this > > > shouldn't be necessary. > > > > > > 10 The Jsources are written in a magnificent style, but need many more > > > explanations (I understand the jdevs are aware of this). > > > > > > 11 Developping J-otherlang communication is a good idea, but given the > > > current situation it feels like an admission of defeat. > > > > > > > > > Maybe there is no solution for J. Perhaps the timing is wrong, and it > > must lie > > > dormant, biding it's time before one day in the future rising up again, > > in a > > > new form. All we can do now is believe J is worth fighting for. > > > > > > I close this by saying I have the utmost respect for all Jers, but > > things must > > > change, and radically if J is to live. > > > > > > J4 > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm ---------------------------------------------------------------------- For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm
