Apologies Ray, that came out a little more harsh than intended.
This thread is getting way off topic, lets leave it at that.
>From: "Ray Mosely" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Reply-To: "Ray Mosely" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: "Frank Wells" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Subject: RE: Ethernet Trivia
>Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2000 16:43:04 -0500
>
>Them's fightin' words, but I'll ignore that.
>
>The discussion is an ethernet discussion, therefore
>Manchester encoding is the correct physical layer
>protocol to refer to. The discussion was reaching
>some rarefied levels, so I felt comfortable throwing
>in the encoding concepts.
>
>Bits are a mathematical concept. "Binary digits."
>In that sense, they are intangible, and not wavelength,
>as is any number concept. (I'm not really sure what
>you mean "bits being wavelength." That discussion was
>on bits occupying line space.)
>
>Bits arose as a discussion concepts when the definition
>of "get there" was called into question. If by "get there"
>we mean the arrival of the first tiny little iota of information,
>then 10BaseT and 100BaseT arrive at the same time. If
>by "get there" we mean usable information in the form
>of a packet or frame, then 100BaseT gets there first.
>
>Follow the thread, and I hope you will see that my comments
>fit in, just a day later than the weekend warriors.
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of
>Frank Wells
>Sent: Monday, October 09, 2000 3:38 PM
>To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Subject: RE: Ethernet Trivia
>
>
>Lets not make this any more complicated than it needs to be. In the case
>of
>Manchester encoding you are right on, but there are many more different
>line
>encoding methods than Manchester.
>
>You are indeed correct about bits being wavelength. However, you don't seem
>to grasp that bits are just a nice friendly term to help folks understand
>the concepts. Bits are intangible until sequences of them are turned into
>characters and formed into strings which are then compiled into scripts
>which get parsed by a command interpreter blah blah blah.
>
>
> >From: "Ray Mosely" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >Reply-To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >To: "whatshakin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >Subject: RE: Ethernet Trivia
> >Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2000 14:07:01 -0500
> >
> >Of course bits occupy line space. It's called
> >wavelength. And bits aren't signalled by
> >different voltages, in ethernet. They are
> >signalled by a voltage change, from -1 to +1
> >or +1 to -1. Try doing a web search on Manchester
> >encoding.
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of
> >whatshakin
> >Sent: Saturday, October 07, 2000 12:20 AM
> >To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >Subject: Re: Ethernet Trivia
> >
> >
> >This makes it sound like there is actually something tangible being put
>on
> >the wire. Bits are merely ones and zeros which are signaled by different
> >voltages etc in the line encoding.
> >
> >Bits do not occupy line space.
> >
> >Measurements of how fast data can be moved over a wire are the time it
> >takes
> >for a signal at one end to be heard at the other. The amount of data
> >(signals) which can be moved across a wire is ascertained by the line
> >encoding method, and how many signals the encoding system can be made to
> >produce in a second. Minus the delay factors between point A and B of
> >course.
> >
> >I seem to recall reading some papers from folks at the US Berkley
>computer
> >science dept a few years back that researched the various line encoding
> >techniques etc that were quite interesting. I cannot find them now that
>I
> >need them though!!
> >
> >BTW, my calculations for the speed of light resulted in 299,793,100 m/s
> >
> >
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: Leigh Anne Chisholm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >To: Kevin L. Kultgen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; Tim O'Brien
> ><[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >Sent: Friday, October 06, 2000 4:15 PM
> >Subject: RE: Ethernet Trivia
> >
> >
> > > Ahh Kevin, your post reminds me of some research I did when I was
> >putting
> >together my paper on LAN Switching for CertificationZone. I was looking
>at
> >how to calculate the round-trip propagation delay for 10BaseT networks.
> >Here's a few technical numbers for you you (and possibly other Groupstudy
> >members) might find interesting.
> > >
> > > --- Beginning of Calculations ---
> > >
> > > Electrical signals travel in a copper wire travel (propagate) at
> >approximately two-thirds the speed of light. Remembering that the speed
>of
> >10 Mbps Ethernet is 10,000,000 bits/second, we can determine the length
>of
> >wire that one bit occupies, by using the following calculation:
> > >
> > > Speed of Light in a Vacuum = 300,000,000 meters/second
> > >
> > > Speed of Electricity in a Copper Cable = 200,000,000 meters/second
> > >
> > > 20,000,000 meters/second / 10,000,000 bits/second = 20 meters per
>bit
> > >
> > > The minimum size Ethernet frame consisting of 64 bytes (512 bits)
> >occupies
> >10,240 meters of cable.
> > >
> > > --- End ---
> > >
> > >
> > > -- Leigh Anne
> > >
> > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf
>Of
> > > > Kevin L. Kultgen
> > > > Sent: Thursday, October 05, 2000 10:12 AM
> > > > To: Tim O'Brien; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > > Subject: Re: Ethernet Trivia
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > They would both start at the same time. The 100bT interface would
>be
> > > > placing bits on the wire faster than the 10bT interface and would
> >complete
> > > > placing bits on the wire in 1/10 the time. But those bits can't
> >actually
> > > > move any faster through the copper medium. The copper isn't more
> > > > conductive
> > > > (it's still Cat 5(e)) and the speed of light hasn't increased.
> > > > So the bits
> > > > that are placed on the wire will move through the wire at exactly
>the
> >same
> > > > rate. If the bits for 10bT consume 5 meters of cable megth before
>the
> >NIC
> > > > moves the the next bit then a bit for 100bT will be 1/2 meter (.5
> >meters)
> > > > before the next bit is placed on the wire. This is just an
> > > > example, I'm not
> > > > sure of the exact lengths of the bits on the wire, but the point
> > > > is that the
> > > > bits can't move any faster because the speed of electricity through
> >copper
> > > > is fixed. The difference is that the 100bT card is placing bits
> > > > on the wire
> > > > 10x faster than the 10bT card. And 1000bT (gigabit ethernet)
> > > > places bits on
> > > > the wire 100x faster than the 10bT card (or each bit would be .05
> > > > meters (5
> > > > centimeters), given the above example).
> > > >
> > > > So, on 100bT the end of the packet (the whole packet) would arrive
> >before
> > > > the 10bT would be done (in fact depending on the size of the packet
> >10bT
> > > > might still be sending the preamble or headers), but the start of
>the
> > > > packets (first bit of the preamble) would arrive at the same time.
> > > >
> > > > HTH,
> > > >
> > > > Thanx
> > > >
> > > > Kevin L. Kultgen
> > > >
> > > > Disclaimer: YMMV, the 5/.5/.05 meters are all fictional, I was told
>at
> >one
> > > > point how long a bit is on the wire but I forgot it. If I have
> >anything
> > > > that needs clarification (or correction) then please feel free to
> > > > add it or
> > > > request it. This is helping me too, because I'm looking at taking
>the
> > > > CNX-Ethernet exam (http://www.mycnx2000.com,
>http://www.cnx2000.com).
> > >
> > > **NOTE: New CCNA/CCDA List has been formed. For more information go to
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