Well said. I totally agree with your view points.
Paul Werner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
[EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> **WARNING - VERBOSITY BIT IS SET. DELETE IF YOU ARE TIME
> CHALLENGED**
>
> Priscilla makes some excellent points below. I agree with her
> totally and completely. I would like to add to her points and
> open up a new area for discussion. It revolves around the
> issue of getting the most bang for your buck in training.
>
> One thing that has really surprised me about monitoring this
> list for the past two years is how little preparation most
> people make in choosing their training, and training
> providers. Many of you do not have a choice. If you get
> training at all, it is supplied by the sole contractor/company
> that your company selects, and that is that. Okay, something
> is better than nothing at all.
>
> OTOH, there may be more to it than that. Did you have to sign
> some form of indentured servitude (employment agreement or
> contract) to attend such training? If so, it is hardly free.
> There are strings attached, and they are attached to you. You
> should have a say in who provides your training and the quality
> of that training. Besides, if an employer keeps sending you to
> a marginal/substandard training provider, how long do you feel
> you are going to stay with that employer? The feedback loop is
> vitally important. Whoever was sent to the class that was
> originally mentioned, you need to inform your supervisor of the
> situation and seek remedies. I agree with Priscilla, asking
> for a refund is not out of the question. Still, all of this
> discussion up to this point is all **reactive** Let's get into
> the realm of proactiveness...
>
> First things first. Are you taking the right type of
> training? If your budget is limited, you may need to pick and
> choose fewer classes from a long list to create a short list of
> essential classes. Did you work with your training advisor to
> get the right classes for you? A good training company should
> meet your needs, not just sell you to a seat. They should
> listen to what your needs are, and fulfill them. You may not
> need certification based training. You may only need specialty
> training, such as CVOICE, CIPT, etc. Buying something you
> don't need in today's austere environment is not good.
>
> Assuming you have identified the classes you need, are you
> taking them in the proper order? Yes, it is possible to take
> BSCN before ICND however, I would not recommend it. Depending
> upon your experience level, you will either be bored to tears
> in ICND, or you will be in way over your head in BSCN. Cisco
> publishes a recommended prerequisites list for most Cisco
> classes. They are there for a reason - food for thought...
>
> Once you have identified the classes you need and found the
> right order of classes, are the locations convenient to you?
> Sometimes, this is not necessarily what you might think it
> means. Convenient may be down the street, but I consider that
> to be a slightly sub-optimal situation when you are getting
> calls/pages every 30 minutes and getting pulled out from class
> constantly. It's tougher to do when you are in the next
> state. OTOH, you may have to fight for travel funds, so there
> is a balance to be achieved. A little hint to help all of you
> who are attending training and don't want to get pulled out of
> classes - pagers don't work in training facilities. The walls
> are normally made of kryptonite, and the only radiation that
> will penetrate is cosmic radiation:-) Seriously, wait until
> the breaks, or lunch time to answer the pages. If you are that
> critical to your network's daily function, and that
> irreplaceable, you will get burnt out over the long haul.
>
> Once you have figured out the classes, order, and location(s),
> what about your instructor? This one will probably raise a big
> stink at the training partners, but it is definitely a question
> I would ask. Would you go pay $2,000 to a doctor and not even
> know their name before you went under the knife? Call me
> clueless, but my money is on doing a little homework in this
> area. How long has your instructor been teaching? What
> courses does he/she teach? What field experience do they
> have? Here's a good one - what is their instructor evaluation
> rating?
>
> Every Cisco instructor is evaluated by every one of his/her
> students after every class that is taught. All evaluations are
> ultimately sent to San Jose for compilation in a database. New
> instructors are allowed to carry a slightly lower rating during
> their first six months. After that, there is a minimum
> standard that all instructors must meet, or they are put on
> probation (and could lose their certification if they don't
> improve). Are you content to get an average instructor, or do
> you want the best bang for your buck? I don't think it would
> be going out a limb to say that if Priscilla was an active
> Cisco instructor she would probably carry a 4.7 or better out
> of a 5.0 scale. 4.4 to 4.5 is considered respectable for
> somebody who has been teaching a while.
>
> Another issue is regarding professional standing, and coequals
> in the field. As an example, many of you have commented over
> the last several years about wanting to take the ECP1 class by
> Bruce Caslow. The overwhelming majority of you hold it in high
> regard (and rightfully so); it produces results. The results
> are a measurable improvement in the CCIE lab test taking
> methodologies and "issue spotting". Many of you will only take
> this course if Bruce is teaching it. What you need to
> understand is that the same effort that Bruce put into
> designing the course, he put as much, if not greater effort,
> into building co-instructors for the course. The last one that
> I saw/knew was Val Pavlichenko. You should feel honored to get
> Val in that class. He is absolutely top notch and adds superb
> real world scenarios to an excellent course. It is my belief
> that he was the only one who could successfully port the Vlab
> technology over to Stratacom boxes, which is no small feat.
> Don't believe for a second you are getting 2nd best; far, far
> from it. My point is that asking for an instructor by name is
> not always the best path to a goal. Be prepared for choices.
> You are in the driver's seat.
>
> In the same vein about instructors, what level of dedication
> does your instructor have? Is that person there early in the
> morning before class starts to answer your questions? Are they
> there after class if you need them? Will they be there if you
> need/want to stay after class and play with the toys? It's
> your money, you are in the driver's seat.
>
> Regarding your instructor, how receptive are they to answering
> your questions? Are they constantly deflecting questions, or
> do they get you an answer? Not every instructor can know
> everything about everything. Some students monopolize the
> class with off topic questions, such as constantly wanting to
> know about ATM VCs and BGP confederations in an ICND class.
> Those are questions that reasonably should be deflected to
> after class. OTOH, if a student is in ICND, and does not
> understand the difference between split horizon and route
> poisoning, the instructor should answer the question.
>
> If a student really wants/needs to know an answer, the
> instructor should get it. It may be the next morning, or the
> following day, but they should answer your questions. If your
> instructor doesn't write your questions down on the white
> board, do it yourself on your own paper. When a day or two goes
> by and you haven't heard an answer, ping the instructor again.
> If they still don't get you an answer, they get what they
> deserve on Friday at the end of class when the evaluations are
> made. It's your money, you are in the driver's seat.
>
> In a slightly different, but more generic note; what about the
> materials for the class? Does this instructor/training
> organization supplement Cisco's training materials with
> additional labs and/or training materials. As some of you have
> discovered, some of the Cisco manuals are less than totally
> perfect. They have just a few tiny mistakes in them :-) Keep
> this matter in perspective. You can have an accurate manual,
> or a timely manual, but you cannot get both. Which would you
> prefer? For those that say accurate, I need only point you as
> far as the old CLSC course which had training materials that
> talked about "future capabilities in the Cisco switching
> products" that happened a year ago. My vote is on timeliness,
> with a supplement from the instructor in the form or errata
> information, or book corrections. The intent would be to take
> an excellent manual and make it into a great manual or desktop
> reference material. Does your training organization do this for
> you?
>
> You will likely get rebuffed by some training organizations
> when you attempt to make informed inquiries about your
> training. Do not be deterred. It is **YOUR** money. Just
> because your employer may be footing the bill does not make it
> any less of your money. That is part of your total
> compensation package. You need to be in the driver's seat. If
> a training partner is not willing to discuss these sorts of
> issues, maybe another one will. You might end up being a high
> maintenance customer/account for them, but probably a loyal
> customer, and one worth preserving. Again, keep this all in
> perspective. If you went to a doctor and got an outpatient
> surgery for a relatively benign ailment, it might set you (or
> your insurance company) back $2,500. How is taking a $2,000+
> class any different in terms of the research you would do on
> the person who will perform the services?
>
> ---RANT OVER---
>
> v/r,
>
> Paul Werner
>
> > I say she should go for it. Most training partners are very
> concerned
> > with
> > customer satisfaction and try their best to offer high-
> quality classes.
> > My
> > guess is that her instructor was new. That happens. (It can
> be extremely
> >
> > difficult to teach a new class, but that's not her problem &;-
> ) If they
> > won't give her a refund, they might at least let her attend
> again for
> > free.
> > I realize it can be hard to get away again and possibly spend
> more
> > travel
> > money, but it's better than nothing.
> >
> > Priscilla
>
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