I would definitely have to disagree with "certs can help you get a job they
do not really educate you unless you are completely new to the networking
field." I think that if in the process of getting your cert, you read
something other that exam cram, there is a lot to learn. If you look at the
cert process as a chance to learn new things, rather than as a chance to
memorize a bunch of stuff, there is a lot to be learned.
Maybe you can recite by heart every intricacy of the routing protocols
covered in "Routing TCP/IP" by Doyle. Not just how to configure them, but
how they operate and how they make decisions, or all of the info on
switching contained in "LAN Switching" by Kennedy. But most people can't.
They may know quite a bit, but if you read both of those books from cover to
cover I am willing to bet that somewhere in them there will be at least one
new thing that you learn, or hadn't thought about before.
The process also let's some of us who don't work in an IBM environment learn
something about those protocols. Does this matter? Yes because the more you
understand about different protocols, the deeper you can understand how
yours work, and how to make them interoperatre.
So, if you approach the cert process as a chance to learn that one new
thing, rather that memorize what you need to pass a test, then it can
educate you. They can give you the incentive to read that one book that you
could never find the time to read before, or to try something new in your
lab, and figure out how it really works, rather that just how to configure
it.
You can only learn if you let yourself learn, but if you do then anything
can be a learning experience.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of
Stuart Laubstein
Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2001 11:17 AM
To: 'B J'; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: AW: Cisco Certs Becoming Paper CCXX
I disagree with the assesment of the CCNA being a hard test. I would say it
was much easier than any university exam I took with the possible exception
of Psych100. You also do not need many math skills to pass a CCNA-ok maybe
what hex and binary are etc but thats about it. Even BCRAN and BCMSN were
not all that hard. University gives you an education and while certs can
help you get a job they do not really educate you unless you are completely
new to the networking field. I do agree that with more and more books coming
on the market all certs will have more people completing them including
juniper and CCIE but that is what Cisco and Juniper want as they need
support people if they want to keep increasing sales.
stuart
-----Urspr|ngliche Nachricht-----
Von: B J [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Gesendet am: Tuesday, April 03, 2001 5:52 PM
An: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Betreff: Cisco Certs Becoming Paper CCXX
The CCNA is far harder than any test one will encounter with a major in
Education, Anthropology, History, Business Management, etc. Do you really
think the dumbest CCNA isn't more knowledgable in many areas, one being
math, than your daughters first grade teacher?
Bottom line: Remember this: As long as HR employees are hired because
they are great looking babes, they will have no clue on talent. Certs give
them something tangible and simple that they can understand. Degrees do the
same.
A couple more points: I hear people say that certifications are expensive
you best study hard before paying. They are not. Take them 3 or 4 times
each, pay your $300 or $400 and enjoy your huge $5000+ raise and job
security. Don't postpone it. People a class in Art Appreciation at a
"quality university" is going to run you $300 to $400 and is worthless by
their own admission. You need the whole degree.
...and yes. CCIE's will triple. There were no books. Now there are.
Books make tests easy. That is what make Juniper's test so hard now. You
can't read the 12 to 15 they have listed as easily as you can one Sybex book
that is designed around the exam.
Finally, if you are very knowledgeable and dislike "paper certs". Please
put out a book that gets paper people up to par. Something to read after
the exam and before your first interview. I think it would be very helpful
to many, who have a desire but lack an entire network at home. Plus, if you
think people are gaining an edge on you because of certs. You'll be
"Published". That puts you in the upper-diety range. You can live a
lifetime on that.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Scott Baron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2001 9:40 AM
Subject: RE: Cisco Certs Becoming Paper CCXX - Senior Citizen Reply
>Has anyone noticed that people arguing the most that certs dont matter are
>the ones that haven't 'bothered' to get them.
>
>I know that isn't true for everyone... so don't flame me but... see where
>generalities get you! How shortsited can you be to simply make a blanket
>statement... certs don't prove anything... geez.
>
>Scott M. Baron
>CCNP, CCDP, MCP, CNA
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Greg Macaulay [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
>Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2001 9:30 AM
>To: The.Rock; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Subject: RE: Cisco Certs Becoming Paper CCXX - Senior Citizen Reply
>
>
>"certs don't prove anything" ??? I'm not sure that I can agree with that
>statement. Certs IMHO represent an interest by the individual in the
subject
>matter, and a determined effort to undertake studies necessary to become
>more knowledgeable.
>
>Certainly, obtaining a cert. does not make one a guru. But it usually
>(albeit not all the time) indicates a person who has shown some
willingness
>to learn. I view the knowledge I gained by studying for my certs as a
>foundation to be built upon over the coming years. Perhaps I have only a
>passing or introductory knowledge of some subjects at this juncture -- but
I
>assume -- and I certainly hope that as every year passes, I will build
upon
>that foundation knowledge and at some point I will undergo a slow, but
>steady metamorphosis into a guru of sorts! But at this juncture with my
>certs, I would certainly agree that I have just enough knowledge to be
>dangerous! <smile>
>
>I would compare the cert study to obtaining academic and professional
>degrees. Certainly upon graduation, grads are not experts in any area,
but
>they possess the fundamentals upon which to build. A lawyer, for example,
>may indeed represent any survivors of a plane crash is his/her back yard
on
>the day he/she is admitted to the Bar, but law school graduation and
passing
>a Bar Examination DOES NOT indicate an expertise -- but it does indicate
the
>individual has the foundational knowledge and the potential to become an
>expert at some point in the future. I would submit that the same goes for
>physicians, accountants, architects, etc.
>
>I think that the real problem is how these certs. have been marketed.
>Instead of promising IMMEDIATE big bucks, the certs, should be an entry
>ticket into this career. Individuals who possess these certs should be
>respected for the time, effort and interest they have shown in studying
for
>and obtaining a cert. But whether they are PAPER CERTS is truly a
>mischaracterization. As I put forth above, every academic or professional
>degree is indeed initially a paper cert -- but with potential. IT folks
who
>obtain these certs by and large have the potential to succeed. Just as
>there are bright, average and incompetent lawyers, doctors and others, the
>same would hold true in our field. Some individuals in inately intuitive,
>without certs, and others -- the majority -- will become the average IT
>Joe/Jane who work day-to-day in this field. Certainly there will always
be
>the small numbers who are totally incompetent. But it is not because the
>certs are merely paper.
>
>That's my 2 cents.
>
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