Of course, as has been speculated before on this list, it is doubtful
whether all of the questions in the exam have been *written* by somebody
whose native language is English (whether American, English, Australian, or
even Kiwi).
So what does *that* do to the argument for extra time?
And regarding ElephantChild's point of...
> >- If registering in person or on the phone: you would presumably speak
> > to someone (an administrative assistant or receptionist, perhaps) who
> > speaks the same language as you.
In my experience, that presumption is on fairly shaky ground.
;-)
JMcL
---------------------- Forwarded by Jenny Mcleod/NSO/CSDA on 13/06/2001
03:30 pm ---------------------------
"hal9001" @groupstudy.com on 13/06/2001 09:47:48 am
Please respond to "hal9001"
Sent by: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
cc:
Subject: Re: Semi-RANT: extended exams [7:7871]
I can recall sometime back getting rather flamed for pointing out the
difficulties with variations in language and Cisco (or any other American
Supplier/Vendor) Exams.
I think the original thread in this Exam was Circusnuts who has a Doctorate
in American English (I'm only pulling your leg - and please that is not a
sexual invitation).
I think that if the Exam is not in your native tongue then you should get
that extra half hour. Which is why I want all the Cisco Exams taken in the
UK to have that as well.
It must be remembered by some of us that America and Great Britain are two
countries separated by a common language.
Right then I'll just step onto the pyre and one of you jolly Yankee chaps
can light the fire then.
Karl
----- Original Message -----
From: "Hartnell, George"
To:
Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2001 8:29 PM
Subject: RE: Semi-RANT: extended exams [7:7871]
> It's all due to the latitudinal locations of both Canada and Australia,
both
> former British colonies. Because of these extremes, and the northerly
> location of the British Isles themselves, they use the 20 hour day,
instead
> of the more conventional 24 hour period. Canada, particularly, I have
> heard, is moving toward the 24 hour day with typical reluctance, as it is
a
> perceived movement towards the "Americanization" of that country on the
> United States' northern border. So the stated time difference for those
> test is actually the 'corrected' time for that 20 hour day.
>
>
> (Apologies to that great Canadian TV show, "Twenty-two Minutes in This
> Hour".)
>
> Best, G.
> V.P. OGC
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Howard C. Berkowitz [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2001 9:01 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: Semi-RANT: extended exams [7:7871]
>
>
> I'm not even sure if there's a CCIE test center in Australia, but, if
> there is, let's not be too hasty in assuming English, American, or
> Australian.
>
> American candidate to Australian proctor, probably ok: "ping that
row-ter"
>
> English candidate to Australian proctor, "ping that root-er," and the
> candidate immediately makes inappropriate physical contact with the
> person in the apparently appropriate direction.
>
> Vaguely reminded of the Battle of Britain veteran, waving his hands
> and ranting "there were fokkers to the left of me, fokkers to the
> right of me..." and being interrupted with "There weren't any Fokkers
> in the Battle of Britain!"
>
> "What does that have to do with it? These fokkers were Messerschmidts!"
>
> (Wondering if this will get through the filters).
>
>
>
>
> >On Mon, 11 Jun 2001, Kevin Wigle wrote:
> >
> >> I wasn't aware that an extended exam was anymore different than
"normal"
> >> exams except you get more time.
> >>
> >> If this truly is the only difference I'm not sure what your point is.
> If
> >> you, a good English speaker can do the test in 1 hour, then - you're
> done.
> >> Doesn't matter if the exam has allotted 2 hours or 3 hours, you're
done
> in
> > > 1.
> >
> >Picture the following aborted recruiter interview:
> >
> >Me: "I'm a CCNP and CCDP..."
> >
> >Recruiter: (interrupts me) "You passed the extended exams, not the
> >standard ones. You're not a true CCNP and CCDP. You won't do. Good bye."
> >
> >(OK, this is slightly exaggerated, but it should give you the gist.)
> >
> >> I don't think too many people from the US/Canada are going to hop a
> plane
> >to
> >> get that extra 30 minutes test time. Perhaps someone in Brittain
would
> >take
> >> the train to France? that would probably bump the effective price up
a
> >bit.
> >
> >Well, now that you mention it... A Briton would have to hop onto a train
> >or plane to Brussels to take the CCIE lab. So would a German, a Greek,
> >or a Spaniard. I don't remember anything in the CCIE lab blueprint that
> >mentioned granting an extra 2 hours, or half-day, or whatever, to
> >candidates who don't speak natively whatever language(s) the lab
> >documents are written in and or the lab proctors speak or mangle. That
> >sounds inconsistent with the stated goals, esp. when the CCIE written
> >*has* the extension.
> >
> >> I agree with your point #1 and with that a candidate should be able
to
> >elect
> >> to take a non-extended exam. However, a problem could present itself
> later
> >> if a candidate failed the exam and then complained he didn't
understand
> the
> >> consequences of not taking an extended exam! :-) I don't think that
> Vue
> >or
> >> Prometric want to be responsible for having to first judge the
English
> >> proficiency of a candidate.
> >
> >Amusingly, at least one Prometric testing center in Paris also offers an
> >ESL proficiency exam. But you're right, they shouldn't have to. However,
> >there are ways around this, such as letting you (the candidate) take the
> >exam again for free, perhaps limiting that to cases where you appear to
> >be in good faith and or didn't fail the exam abismally (which could be
> >decided by the number of correct answers to questions you had time to
> >answer before the ax felt). Also, the policy is cisco's, and my email
> >was addressed to cisco.
> >
> >> Your point #2 probably wasn't thought of in that way because that
would
> be
> >> politcally incorrect and nobody wants that :-)
> >
> >OK, so I'm blunt and unsubtle. :-) I'm curious, though: what would be a
> >newspeak way of stating it without making it meaningless?
> >
> >> Your point #3 would require in my opinion that the option to
accept/deny
> >the
> >> extended exam would have to be asked in the candidate's native
language.
> >> Now imagine how interesting that could get...................
> >
> >I must have a pedestrian imagination, because all solutions to that that
> >I could think of are uninteresting.
> >
> >- If registering online: IMHO, someone who could navigate the test
> > center's web pages should be able to understand a warning, or a
> > mention, in plain English right at the point the option is offered.
> >
> >- If registering in person or on the phone: you would presumably speak
> > to someone (an administrative assistant or receptionist, perhaps) who
> > speaks the same language as you.
> >
> >> Unless the exam content is easier somehow, I think you're
over-reacting
> a
> >> little bit. I would just accept the time and probably never use it
(I
> >> hope).
> >
> >And I may well end up doing that myself. Indeed, I did in the past. But
> >who said I can't try to change that policy and or get a good rant out of
> >it at the same time? 'Sides which, I have to live up to my reputation as
> >a loudmouth and a curmudgeon, don't I? :-)
> >
> >> Kevin Wigle
> >>
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: "ElephantChild"
> >> To:
> >> Sent: Monday, June 11, 2001 10:32 AM
> >> Subject: Semi-RANT: extended exams [7:7871]
> >>
> >> > This is a copy of a message I sent to cisco training about hidden
> >> > dangers of extended exams. Thoughtful comments and answering rants
are
> >> > equally welcome. No flames, please.
> >>
> >> > ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> >> > From: ElephantChild
> >> > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >> > Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >> > Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2001 13:51:08 +0200 (CEST)
> >> > Subject: CSIDS 2.0 beta: can I have the unextended version?
> >> >
> >> > On June 1st, I registered to take 9E1-572, the CSIDS 2.0 beta. I'm
> >> > scheduled to take it on June 14 at a VUE testing center in France.
The
> >> > confirmation message I received stated that the test time was
extended
> >> > by 30 minutes to accomodate me as a "non-native English speaker
living
> >> > in (a) non-English-speaking country", when I didn't request any
such
> >> > accomodation. That, IMO, carries 3 disturbing assumptions:
> >> >
> >> > 1- That no native English speaker would live outside an
> English-speaking
> >> > country.
> >> >
> >> > 2- That ESL fluency is somehow inferior to native fluency, and not
> >> > enough to handle technical material on a subject I should know
well
> >> > at the same rate as a native speaker would, or at a rate close
> enough
> >> > not to need extra time.
> >> >
> >> > 3- That I want the extension at all.
> >> >
> >> > I raised that issue with VUE, and I was eventually told that I
needed
> to
> >> > get approval from cisco training before VUE, or anyone, would let
me
> >> > take the unextended version.
> >> >
> >> > If you follow discussions among cisco certified professionals, you
> >> > probably noticed that a recurring theme is the perception that
making
> >> > any certification too easy lowers the worth of all certifications
for
> >> > those who hold them, are preparing for them, or are contemplating
> >> > passing them.
> >> >
> >> > Granted, some candidates, maybe most of them, know the subject well
> >> > enough, but have trouble with English and need the extra time to
> >> > understand the questions and the possible answers. For them, the
extra
> >> > time may help keep the exam more or less as difficult as the
> unextended
> >> > exam is for a candidate fluent in English. However, for a fluent
> English
> >> > speaker (whether native or not), that's not needed, and forcing me
to
> >> > take an extended version when I don't need it is lowering its worth
> for
> >> > all candidates worldwide.
> >> >
> >> > This strikes me as especially important for a beta exam, as you're
> still
> >> > trying to set the difficulty and evaluate individual questions for
> >> > clarity, accuracy, and relevance. I'm not sure how many worldwide
will
> >> > be taking that exam, and what share of them got the extended
version.
> It
> >> > seems to me, though, that the less unsure you are how much of the
> score
> >> > comes from domain knowledge and how much from English fluency (or
the
> >> > lack of either), the better for the released exam.
> >> >
> >> > I respectfully request that you make extended exams an option,
> available
> >> > to the candidates who request them, and not force them on
candidates
> who
> >> > neither want nor need them. I also request that you let candidates
> >> > registered for the beta who didn't take it already choose which
> version
> >> > they want to take, and inform them quickly if you decide to grant
my
> >> > request.
> >> >
> >> > Thanks for listening.
> >
> >--
> >"Someone approached me and asked me to teach a javascript course. I was
> >about to decline, saying that my complete ignorance of the subject made
> >me unsuitable, then I thought again, that maybe it doesn't, as driving
> >people away from it is a desirable outcome." --Me
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